# Game of Thrones (season 5) BOOK SPOILERS!! TV SPOILERS! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539 "2015-04-13T02:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/441 "2015-05-22T16:48:03Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > No, she’s going to secretly incite the village to kill Boltons and incite an uprising. Mance and the spearwives didn’t do that though. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/442 "2015-05-22T16:50:11Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Nope. > > The conclusion is that a lot of the murders are committed by the spearwives and mance. They are killing Freys and Boltons guards (rather than specifically them). That’s a theory, but I think most people prefer the Theon theory. Why would they risk blowing their cover? > [@](#): > > I think the Rat Cook contents are dead Freys who never made it back from White Harbour. Yes, obviously. Manderely asked Mance to sing about them when the pie was served. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/443 "2015-05-22T17:02:57Z")
Hmm, the wiki of ice and fire flat out states that they kill Yellow Dick at a minimum. I don’t remember that. I don’t see Sansa doing that, but I guess we’ll see in the next 4 episodes. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/444 "2015-05-22T17:18:34Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > That’s a theory, but I think most people prefer the Theon theory. Why would they risk blowing their cover? AWOIAF states that it was Mance and the spearwives doing most, but not all, of the killings. Theon is pointed as unlikely to be the killer because of his mental and physical state. Most of the killings would have needed someone with more strength or able-bodied than him. Certainly the Freys have enough enemies around for all enemies to take out a few each. And they may all be inadvertently cooperating with each other. The idea being to cause confusion and distrust amongst the Freys. Kill enough of them and the Freys may autodestroy each other. Also in the confusion, they may pay less attention to the other folk wandering about, like the singing guy and his group. Thus making escape plans and escape easier. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/445 "2015-05-22T17:48:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think this kind of statement needs more thinking through. It seems to me there’s a big difference between “it’s a fact of life and I have no choice but to figure out how to survive it given that I have no way to change the situation” and “it didn’t feel as bad when it happened because they were used to it.” I never said it _felt less bad_. I said people developped ways to cope with that badness effectively. Possibly more effectively than they do today. Of course this only drew people to try and devise ways to beat that coping strategy, but that’s besides the point :o. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/446 "2015-05-22T17:52:16Z")
Like I mentioned in the other thread, most of violence in the show is basically fantasy violence. It’d be terrible if it happened, but for the most part it doesn’t in modern industrialized countries. Rapes _do_ happen all the time in our world, though, particularly a situation like this where it’s someone in a position of trust doing the raping. I don’t agree that the rape scene was _necessarily_ gratuitous (we’ll see were the story arc goes) but this whole attitude of “gee, getting your head chopped off by some twerp tyrant or being eaten by a dragon would be way worse than getting raped, but nobody ever complained about those!” is either disingenuous or shows a pretty poor understanding of the current state of sexual violence in the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/447 "2015-05-22T18:00:55Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > And to indicate that you just get used to it - ugh. Women are tough and strong and have been through multiple rapes and survived but I still don’t think it’s something you just say “Oh, it’s Tuesday again”. Clarification : my “it’s Tuesday” joke referred to the frequency at which these kinds of things happened. Not the harm they caused - which was significant both on an individual and societal POV. For example, French & English societies became extremely morbid as a whole towards the end of the Hundred Years War. You had\* danses macabres \*being painted all over the place, statues of decaying bodies in every cemetary etc…, omnipresent & constant reminders that “get used to the idea of random death because SOON, and get used to the fact that death ain’t pretty”. Which, in turn, had a strong influence on the wars of religion in the following centuries, the treatment of prisoners & criminals etc… But that’s kind of my point : there’s a reason for (some) people getting burned at the stake, or drawn & quartered, or made to fight hungry lions in Ancient Rome etc… And this reason was, “getting killed” (or “getting raped”) was just routine back then. A daily occurence. If you wanted to make a statement with violence, you had to move beyond and above that. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/448 "2015-05-22T18:12:29Z")
I’d guess that if some serious animal abuse was graphically depicted, the backlash would be even bigger than from humans being raped. Honestly, when Ned Stark was forced to kill Sansa’s wolf it was a really hard thing for me to watch. Maybe bothered me more than any scene so far. It was even a fairly quick, humane death . ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/449 "2015-05-22T18:21:47Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Like I mentioned in the other thread, most of violence in the show is basically fantasy violence. It’d be terrible if it happened, but for the most part it doesn’t in modern industrialized countries. Rapes _do_ happen all the time in our world, though, particularly a situation like this where it’s someone in a position of trust doing the raping. > > I don’t agree that the rape scene was _necessarily_ gratuitous (we’ll see were the story arc goes) but this whole attitude of “gee, getting your head chopped off by some twerp tyrant or being eaten by a dragon would be way worse than getting raped, but nobody ever complained about those!” is either disingenuous or shows a pretty poor understanding of the current state of sexual violence in the modern world. Which is why there’s humongous outrage about all the gun violence depicted in other shows, right? Position of trust? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/450 "2015-05-22T18:22:49Z")
I watch the show, and I don’t really get the reason for the upset either. I think it might be because Sansa is a “Mary Sue” character- one who is always good, always right, etc., and people don’t like to see her harmed. As far as unpleasant scenes go in GoT, this rape scene was kinda mild. Ramsay turned her away from him and tore the back of her dress, and then the scene shifted to Theon. It seems like just a week or two ago that another character was burned alive at the stake. That scene was much longer an more graphic that Sansa’s scene. I expected that she would likely have an upleasant evening with Ramsay following their wedding. I mean ‘duh.’ ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/451 "2015-05-22T18:39:30Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I watch the show, and I don’t really get the reason for the upset either. I think it might be because Sansa is a “Mary Sue” character- one who is always good, always right, etc., and people don’t like to see her harmed. The Mary Sue drops promotion for Game of Thrones without an ounce of self-awareness. I like how they, like many others, tell everyone the rape did not further her character, like they’re the ones plotting out Sansa’s life instead of the people who are actually plotting out Sansa’s life. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/452 "2015-05-22T18:56:30Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Which is why there’s humongous outrage about all the gun violence depicted in other shows, right? > > Position of trust? Firstly, the vast majority of gun violence on TV is pretty much cop-n-robbers “bang bang you’re dead” type stuff that I’d say is still pretty much fantasy violence. But more realistic crime shows do exist and they do indeed elicit more of an emotional response. That’s the thing that’s unique about “realistic” fantasy shows like GoT-- you’ve got the wildly unrealistic mashed in with things that resonate quite strongly in the modern world. I’d argue that most of the violence, visceral thought it may be, falls into the former category whereas the sexual violence squarely falls in the latter. Like I said, I don’t necessarily agree with the “outrage” but it shouldn’t be a mystery why the rapes elicit more of a response than disembowlings by dragons. And, “husband” isn’t a position of trust? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/453 "2015-05-22T19:02:00Z")
I’m not outraged about it, but I dislike the scene and the plot and not because it is a rape per se. For one thing Sansa has been a hapless victim for years, and just when it looked like maybe something had changed whoop Littlefinger has thrown her under the bus and fucked her over for his own gain, she gets a whole new round of victimization! I don’t even see what the point of her plan is, she would have been better off going to Stannis and pledging loyalty in exchange for being installed at Winterfell. Just enough already, it is totally unrealistic that Dany wandered around in the lawless wilderness or pleaded to enter cities with the most valuable thing in the world that were tiny and helpless and she wasn’t killed and had them stolen. So clearly this show is not worried about plot armor when it suits them. EDIT:Even a shot of Sansa’s face showing grim determination would have satisfied me, this is something she is enduring for revenge. Not Sansa gets victimized again. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/454 "2015-05-22T19:03:02Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Firstly, the vast majority of gun violence on TV is pretty much cop-n-robbers “bang bang you’re dead” type stuff that I’d say is still pretty much fantasy violence. But more realistic crime shows do exist and they do indeed elicit more of an emotional response. That’s the thing that’s unique about “realistic” fantasy shows like GoT-- you’ve got the wildly unrealistic mashed in with things that resonate quite strongly in the modern world. I’d argue that most of the violence, visceral thought it may be, falls into the former category whereas the sexual violence squarely falls in the latter. Like I said, I don’t necessarily agree with the “outrage” but it shouldn’t be a mystery why the rapes elicit more of a response than disembowlings by dragons. > > And, “husband” isn’t a position of trust? Name me one gun murder that created reactions like this? Nobody was boycotting the Wire. You’re being disingenuous if you’re claiming that Sansa trusts Ramsay one iota before the rape. Funny for someone that was just claiming the same of others. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/455 "2015-05-22T19:38:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I don’t get it either. There’s all kinds of vicious murdering, killing, beheading, etc and people are upset over a rape scene? > [@AK84](#): > > It was the recreational outrage crowd mainly. When sensible people pointed out what you say in the post, they have scuried to make excuses like being “invested in the character” or “rape is special”. It would be quite interesting to know what proportion of those who post in the\* rape isn’t so bad–it’s ridiculous to complain about it\* vein, have actually been raped themselves. I don’t suppose there’s any way of finding out. But it would be rather thought-provoking information to have. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/456 "2015-05-22T19:46:14Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Name me one gun murder that created reactions like this? Nobody was boycotting the Wire. > > You’re being disingenuous if you’re claiming that Sansa trusts Ramsay one iota before the rape. Funny for someone that was just claiming the same of others. The difference is that with shows like the Wire that have serious portrayals of gun violence, the whole show is serious. The issue people have with GoT is that you’ve got very serious issues interspersed with fantastical ones. There’s no equivalent I can think of for gun violence. Again, I don’t agree that it’s impossible to have serious issues like this in a fantasy show but doing it in a meaningful manner is difficult. Acting like obvious fantasy violence is equivalent to a type of violence that occurs every day in the modern world is wrong-headed. And “position of trust” simply means someone who has been placed in a position where they’re theoretically looking out for your interests, not that you actually trust the person. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/457 "2015-05-22T19:57:09Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It would be quite interesting to know what proportion of those who post in the\* rape isn’t so bad–it’s ridiculous to complain about it\* vein, have actually been raped themselves. > > I don’t suppose there’s any way of finding out. But it would be rather thought-provoking information to have. A good point. I think the main root of the anger is the fact that it was unneeded. It would have been much more interesting to see Ramsay fight against his desires and adds nothing to his character’s depravity to have him rape her. Nor does it add any depth to Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/458 "2015-05-22T19:57:30Z")
[Red Nose Day’s Coldplay’s Game of Thrones: The Musical](https://youtu.be/zs7xO5P3Az4). I had to share. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/459 "2015-05-22T20:02:23Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > It would be quite interesting to know what proportion of those who post in the\* rape isn’t so bad–it’s ridiculous to complain about it\* vein, have actually been raped themselves. > > I don’t suppose there’s any way of finding out. But it would be rather thought-provoking information to have. Who’s saying that rape isn’t bad? Nobody that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/460 "2015-05-22T20:34:53Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > A good point. > > I think the main root of the anger is the fact that it was unneeded. It would have been much more interesting to see Ramsay fight against his desires and adds nothing to his character’s depravity to have him rape her. Nor does it add any depth to Sansa. That’s just not true - and it is demonstrated by the controversy it generated. If nothing was to learned from the inclusion of the rape, then no one would bat an eye. The fact that it increased Sansa’s suffering, more fully fleshed out the depravity of Ramsay, and incited reaction among viewers makes plain that it adds to the characterization. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=24)