# Game of Thrones (season 5) BOOK SPOILERS!! TV SPOILERS! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539 "2015-04-13T02:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/681 "2015-06-15T00:22:18Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Suppose your kid was sick, and needed a transplant. Would you lie to get him or her higher up the transplant list? Would you kill kids who were ahead of your kid on the list? > > If your kid was accused of a crime, would you perjure yourself to help them? Would you mortgage your house and empty your life savings to bail them out? You raise a good point, **Max**. I probably wouldn’t do those things. (Certainly not the ones in the first paragraph.) This helps clarify my thinking on the issue. I think the key point isn’t “you should do anything you can to help your kid”, but rather that there are some things that are so wrong that you shouldn’t do them even if you think it’s for the greater good – no matter how great the good is. The point being, you never _actually_ know that it’s the only way to achieve that good\*, whereas you do certainly know that you’re doing something despicable. Killing kids certainly falls into that category. I _do_ think you should do everything to help your kid, short of crossing some uncrossable line. Probably even if it means other people will die… failing to save someone isn’t the same as killing them, at least not in my moral calculus. (If it were, failing to donate money to feed a starving child is the same as stealing the food off their plate.) - Stannis certainly doesn’t know that killing his daughter is the only way to stop the White Walkers. He might believe it, but he doesn’t know it, and indeed it probably won’t turn out to be true. It _might_ have been his only chance to claim the throne, but so what? And he probably won’t achieve that regardless. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/682 "2015-06-15T00:30:52Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Is there any reason to believe that that’s an actual thing that happens? Well Maedhros totally did it. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/683 "2015-06-15T00:33:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > He’s probably wrong, of course, but in his mind, with what he’s seen, this is more than killing his daughter to win a single battle. This is sacrificing her to save everyone on the planet, including her. My position when it comes to “the ends justify the means” is that when you think the means are pure evil, you’re probably right, but when you think the ends aren’t achievable by any other means, there’s a good chance you’re wrong. And moreover, if the ends really aren’t achievable by any other means, there’s a good chance they won’t be achievable by doing the despicable thing, either. Stannis’ willingness to kill his daughter to save the world is a character flaw, because it makes him drastically more likely to kill his daughter because he _wrongly believes_ it’s the only way to save the world. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/684 "2015-06-15T02:07:20Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Reek’s redemption will be even more meaningful to the TV viewers of the show when he helps Sansa escape. In my mind I see a scene where, after he runs the ramparts, he confesses not killing her younger brothers. Yay, I got to see that! ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/685 "2015-06-15T02:17:49Z")
D&D are troll masters with that “previously on.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/686 "2015-06-15T02:28:24Z")
Unfortunately they kinda ruined the end (the Night’s Watch part). In the book, “For the Watch” actually means something other than “you let Wildlings through the Wall”. It meant that Jon was about to involve the Watch in a War for the North and that would have changed everything the Watch was about - ever since the Night’s King. Oh, also… they didn’t explicitly show Brienne kill Stannis, right? No Stannis body. Sooo… that seems a bit open And… that was a BIIIIG jump from the wall by Theon and Sansa… In the books Theon and Jeyne survive, but it almost seems like it’d be silly to expect Theon and Sansa to survive that. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/687 "2015-06-15T02:37:03Z")
Behind the scenes, filming the Hardhome massacre: [Game of Thrones Season 5: Episode #8 - The Massacre at Hardhome (HBO) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9q1CXdqtXM) ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/688 "2015-06-15T03:02:43Z")
So, as a lover of all 4 seasons up to this point, I think one can fairly say this season lacked a lot from the previous four. It had its moment, but this season was by far the lesser of all of them. Especially this last episode. Anti-climactic, rushed and it felt like we missed the whole war between Stannis and the Boltons. In the end, Jon Snow bites it by a coup of his “brethren”. And still, it didn’t feel as such a shock as the Red Wedding or even Ned getting his head lopped off in Season 1 (though, I’m still saddened to see him go). Let’s hope Season Six is much closer to the taught story telling as the first four seasons; assuming the writers will pick up from the next book installment from GRRM. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/689 "2015-06-15T03:08:01Z")
I disagree, i think this has been the best season so far and the last three episodes the three best on the whole series. I thought Jons eyes were going to turn white, guess not. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/690 "2015-06-15T03:13:05Z")
I guess I agree with **cmyk**. Dull season. Telegraphed “surprises”. Meh all around (well aside from Hardhome). ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/691 "2015-06-15T03:21:19Z")
Season 2 was probably the worst season for me. 1 and 3 were the best. I’m not sure how I’d rank 4 and 5. Probably 4 ahead of 5. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/692 "2015-06-15T05:22:54Z")
_et tu_, Olly? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/693 "2015-06-15T05:42:43Z")
They certainly had a lot of surprises this episode (even as a book reader) but I can’t help but feel they really screwed up at least two of them. Stannis: My initial inclination is to think “he’s not dead.” They have no problem showing very final deaths on screen, so to have there be a cut away when Brienne swings the sword is suspicious. I also have trouble believing that Stannis’ entire story just fizzles out like that given where he is in the book (and how in the book he seems to be in a good position to win the Battle for Winterfell, unlike here). Jon: As **ISiddiqui** says, there’s not really a reason for the Watch to mutiny against him now. Jon ordering the Night’s Watch to choose a side… that’s a reason, and it’s a big shift from the book. What do they plan to do with the Wildlings? Slaughter them (and probably lose half/most of the Watch in the process?) Also disappointed to see Alliser involved, he’s much more interesting as a gruff by-the-book type instead of just barely not-evil. Oh, and Dorne proved to be as absolutely pointless as we all feared. Killing Myrcella also seems like a rather large departure from the books - how could it do anything but spark war between Dorne and the Lannisters? And jeez, they couldn’t even work in Robert Strong’s name, or Cersei declaring trial by combat? Awkward introduction there. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/694 "2015-06-15T07:02:34Z")
Anyone want to tally up who’s dead in the show but alive in the books, and vice versa? I think we’ve got: **Dead in the Show** Stannis Shireen Barristan Myrcella **Dead in the Books** Kevan Balon Who am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/695 "2015-06-15T07:41:12Z")
Off the top of my head: **Dead in the Show:** Meryn Trant Mance Rayder Pyp EDIT: Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, Hizdahr zo Loraq **Dead in the Books:** Beric Dondarrion ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/696 "2015-06-15T07:49:54Z")
Is Davos not killed in the books then? I’ve only just finished Book 4, in which they tell Cersei at one point that his head is mounted on somebody’s wall with an onion stuffed in its mouth. But I guess in Book 5 that turns out to be a lie? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/697 "2015-06-15T08:43:21Z")
Did the writers play reverse-cluedo with characters and decide who was going to die and where/how? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/698 "2015-06-15T09:20:07Z")
And Grenn. Although he is combined with Donal Noye, who did die. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > Is Davos not killed in the books then? I’ve only just finished Book 4, in which they tell Cersei at one point that his head is mounted on somebody’s wall with an onion stuffed in its mouth. But I guess in Book 5 that turns out to be a lie? Do you want spoilers or not? Yes, a lie. While GRRM has no compunctions about killing “good” characters, an “off-camera” death was less that he’d deserve. > [@AK84](#): > > Did the writers play reverse-cluedo with characters and decide who was going to die and where/how? They talk to GRRM. That doesn’t mean that the same characters die though, but I imagine that a TV death = not so important in the show, or their major role can be written into someone else. Maggy’s prophecy suggests that Mycella and Tommen’s days are numbered, but I can’t remember if that was part of the book prophecy. … Searched the wiki, and sounds like the book said it too: “Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said.” ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/699 "2015-06-15T13:25:19Z")
Kit Harrington is saying that Jon is dead for good. No resurrection, so warging into Ghost, d-e-a-d. Really? I’m not sure I believe him. His death in the book shocked me for a little bit, but not nearly as much as Ned or the Red Wedding since I figured he’d be back. Kinda weird to find out like this. Stannis going out like that seems bizarre considering where he’s at in the books. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/700 "2015-06-15T13:34:21Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Kit Harrington is saying that Jon is dead for good. No resurrection, so warging into Ghost, d-e-a-d. Really? I’m not sure I believe him. His death in the book shocked me for a little bit, but not nearly as much as Ned or the Red Wedding since I figured he’d be back. Kinda weird to find out like this. > > Stannis going out like that seems bizarre considering where he’s at in the books. Did you notice how he demured when asked about cutting his hair? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=36)