# Game of Thrones (season 5) BOOK SPOILERS!! TV SPOILERS! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 13, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539 "2015-04-13T02:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/761 "2015-06-16T17:26:28Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Except she isn’t actually the queen. Hasn’t been for as far as I can, two or three years according to the show. Not the queen. Other woman Queen. Not married to king. Factual. > > Bit weird to call it a nitpick. How does every speaker introduce Bill Clinton? Why would they do that if he hasn’t held office for over 14 years? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/762 "2015-06-16T17:30:09Z")
OK, my calls: Jon is dead, but may be raised in some way. Stannis is dead. Sansa & Theon survived the fall. Still in danger. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/763 "2015-06-16T17:43:46Z")
Do they count as POV characters if the chapter is not named after them (although in book 5 or maybe 4, some chapters had actual titles IIRC)? E.g. the prologue characters like Merrett Frey or Varamyr, although I think the latter is still “technically” alive. Finale comments: Didn’t like how Stannis was handled. He put sellswords/likely deserters in charge of _all_ the horses? I got the impression that the Bolton army was much smaller before that battle as well. Jon: Besides the motivation, IIRC the big difference is that they lured him off in the night while in the books IIRC it was in broad daylight with an audience of Wildlings and Baratheons. The book is closer to the Caesar conspirators, who didn’t want to make a martyr of him and wanted to do it blatantly to impress on the idea that it was a tyrannicide and not a (literal) political assassination or personal. I haven’t read anything from WoW: I don’t think we know what happens to Bowen Marsh and the rest? Do they immediately surrender, because “for the watch” not them? Does everything become more of a bloodbath? This is right after a giant smashes a guy who looked at him wrong, mind you (and [also because the Dallas Cowboys suck](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wun_Weg_Wun_Dar_Wun#Behind_the_Scenes)). Does nobody else see it in the fracas? I’m not sure which version I prefer. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/764 "2015-06-16T17:45:13Z")
I don’t think Stannis is dead, the look on Brienne’s face when he said “do your duty” and the cutting away before the killing blow have to mean something. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/765 "2015-06-16T17:51:44Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t think Stannis is dead, the look on Brienne’s face when he said “do your duty” and the cutting away before the killing blow have to mean something. I agree – the producers chose to cut away for a reason… either because Stannis isn’t dead or because they want viewers to think he might not be dead. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/766 "2015-06-16T17:53:05Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I don’t think Stannis is dead, the look on Brienne’s face when he said “do your duty” and the cutting away before the killing blow have to mean something. That’s what I thought too. It was a weird slash to quick cut away. There doesn’t seem to be any reason why Stannis is not shown to be dead in the show. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/767 "2015-06-16T17:54:48Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Didn’t like how Stannis was handled. He put sellswords/likely deserters in charge of _all_ the horses? I got the impression that the Bolton army was much smaller before that battle as well. Not just that, but no scouts sent out ahead to see if there were any Bolton forces on the road to Winterfell? He has been called the greatest military commander in Westeros. You’d think someone like that would have been a biiit more prepared on how to fight a battle. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/768 "2015-06-16T18:06:08Z")
By the end STannis does not have enough troops to raid a particularly riotous college party, never mind undertake proper military ops. ---
**Author:** ![Dante](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dante/32/9673_2.png) [@Dante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dante)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/769 "2015-06-16T18:10:15Z")
I would like to see Jon warg into Wun Wun, and give Alliser a thorough stomping. Pasty like. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/770 "2015-06-16T18:18:59Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > My minor quibble with the TV version of this storyline is that Jon is so clearly in the right. It makes absolutely no sense to oppose his plans with the Wildlings after what they saw at Hardhome. There were multiple Night’s Watch soldiers who witnessed what happened, and you’d think they’d be at Castle Black vehemently telling everyone what they saw and that Jon’s plan was right. Totally agree. I’d also think the wildlings would listen to him if not have a sense of loyalty towards him considering he saved all their asses. I hope they don’t screw this series up. John warging into his wolf sounds really dumb to me right now considering it’s never even been hinted at in the show. He can’t be finished as a character either, that would screw up everything. Melisandra raising him, being raised by fire on funeral pyre or Snow surviving the attack are the most viable options imo. I’d prefer the latter of the three. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/771 "2015-06-16T19:58:50Z")
Moved some book discussion to this thread from the show one. PLEASE TRY, SOMEWHAT, TO KEEP THEM SEPARATE since that is what the OPs ask for. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/772 "2015-06-16T20:07:24Z")
No no no. The theory in the books is that Jon wargs into Ghost because that’s what he last says. In the show his last word is “Olly.” So that’s who he’s going to warg into. Then he’s going to kill himself. Because fuck Olly. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/773 "2015-06-16T20:23:46Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > That’s what I thought too. It was a weird slash to quick cut away. There doesn’t seem to be any reason why Stannis is not shown to be dead in the show. I think, because the producers wanted to have a couple fake deaths (Jon, most likely, and Theon/Sansa is meant to make people wonder) then they also needed to have a couple of actual deaths left slightly ambiguous (Myrcella/Stannis) so that it’s not immediately obvious which deaths are fake-outs. Stannis seems to have played out his arc. He’s lost his family, his friend, his faith, and his army. What can he possibly have left? Myrcella has always just been a plot point, not a real character. Her death serves a much greater purpose than her life. Again, all my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/774 "2015-06-16T20:28:53Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > You’ve never heard or read of people admiringly saying things like: _‘the amazing thing about this, is that anything can happen–anyone can die!’_… and also expressing sadness that a particular character was killed off? > Writers have been employing appeals to sadness, pity, and grief–pathos–for centuries. The technique is well-known to be…crowd-pleasing. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But if you’re using the term that way it just loses all meaning… > “Hey, that movie is dubbed into English, we know that’s a crowd-pleasing choice” > “That movie is subtitled… haven’t you heard the hardcore fans talk about how great it is that it’s subtitled instead of dubbed? What a crowd-pleasing choice” > If the obvious make-everyone-happy plot development and the difficult shocking starling plot development are BOTH “crowd-pleasing” then it just doesn’t mean anything. I don’t recognize any correspondence between what I’ve said in relation to the term “crowd-pleasing,” and what you’ve written here. However, I don’t think this thread is the right place to discuss it further. If you’d like to make a thread for discussion of the term, then I’d be happy to participate. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/775 "2015-06-16T20:34:38Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Stannis seems to have played out his arc. He’s lost his family, his friend, his faith, and his army. What can he possibly have left? But isn’t that part of Stannis’s plot arc? That even when he’s beaten, he still fights? Regardless of how dire the situation, he still moves forward and fights? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/776 "2015-06-16T20:38:45Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Stannis seems to have played out his arc. He’s lost his family, his friend, his faith, and his army. What can he possibly have left? His\* head\*…oh wait…😛 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/777 "2015-06-16T20:49:17Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Except she isn’t actually the queen. Hasn’t been for as far as I can, two or three years according to the show. Not the queen. Other woman Queen. Not married to king. Factual. > > Bit weird to call it a nitpick. Of course it’s a nitpick. Actually it’s not even a nitpick, because nitpicks are usually correct. You’re complaining that common people on casual conversation are failing to adhere to some rigorous legal definition of the word “queen.” It’s a ridiculous complaint because it’s perfectly plausible that people will do that. People do that kind of thing in the real world. It’s even more ridiculous when you’re making that complaint about a fictional world in which it is perfectly legitimate to call a person a “queen” who is (1) the widow of the prior king, or (2) serving as queen regent for her minor son, the king, or (3) both. Unless you’re claiming some kind of expertise on the customs of Westeros, how do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/778 "2015-06-16T20:54:14Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > But isn’t that part of Stannis’s plot arc? That even when he’s beaten, he still fights? Regardless of how dire the situation, he still moves forward and fights? All men die. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/779 "2015-06-16T20:57:27Z")
Does Azor Ahai 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539/780 "2015-06-16T21:13:43Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Except she isn’t actually the queen. Hasn’t been for as far as I can, two or three years according to the show. Not the queen. Other woman Queen. Not married to king. Factual. > > Bit weird to call it a nitpick. Actually you’re flat-out wrong. She is Queen Regent, acting ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. I mentioned this in the show thread and it’s even more relevant here because she explicitly reminds people in the book **constantly** , whenever they make a reference to “Margaery” and “Queen” in the same sentence, that no, _she_ (Cersei) is queen. Tommen may be king in name but he is not old enough yet to rule in his own right, therefore Cersei is the acting ruler on his behalf. How can you have read the books and not know this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-5-book-spoilers-tv-spoilers/717539.md?page=40)