# Game of Thrones Season 6 open show/book discussion thread \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058 "2016-04-25T02:16:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/181 "2016-05-11T17:03:36Z")
Since Rhaegar never became king, Then Viserys succeeds to the throne before any offspring of rhaegar’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/182 "2016-05-11T17:06:49Z")
Bigamy wouldn’t even be required for Jon to be legit. Rhaegar could have had a septon anull his marriage to Elia when he married Lyanna. Anything goes if you’re a Targaryen. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/183 "2016-05-11T17:10:47Z")
I agree with **Sterling Archer** that the Rickon “gift” is likely a ruse. Notice he took great care not to kiss the ring or bend the knee to Ramsey. I’d bet that’s another dire wolf’s head, similar to the fake Stark children that they burned. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/184 "2016-05-11T18:54:07Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Correction: As Rhaegar’s sole surviving child, Lyanna’s newborn child in the Tower is _first_ in line for the throne, ahead of Viserys, which makes my point even stronger. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Are you sure about this? Rhaegar died before Aerys, so he was never king. You’re saying the grandson of the king is first in line before the king’s own son, assuming the grandson comes from the first born? > [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Since Rhaegar never became king, Then Viserys succeeds to the throne before any offspring of rhaegar’s. As I indicated in the other non-book thread, the Iron Throne appears to be following male-preference [primogeniture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture) to determine the succession. Until recently, this is the same system as was used for the British throne. (The recent change was to remove the “male-preference” part of it.) Anyway, under the system of male-preference primogeniture, the succession goes through the entire first-born male line until there are no more descendants. There is no requirement for all of these descendants to actually succeed to the throne if they should predecease the monarch. In this specific case being discussed, the son of a deceased elder brother inherits before a living younger brother by right of substitution for the deceased heir. So assuming the child is legitimate, Lyanna’s child (Rhaegar’s oldest surviving child) would succeed to the throne ahead of Viserys (younger brother to Rhaegar). There are many, many examples of grandchildren succeeding to the British/English throne ahead of surviving uncles, including Richard II succeeding Edward III (his grandfather), even though his father (the Black Prince) was never king. Another example is George III, who succeeded his grandfather (George II) even though his father (Prince Frederick) was never king. He succeeded ahead of his uncle (Prince William). Another example is Queen Victoria, who descended from George III’s fourth son. She inherited ahead of several surviving uncles, who were younger sons than her father. Finally, note that in the current British royal family, William will still be next in line for the throne even if his grandmother outlives his father, and his father never becomes king. There is no circumstance in which William’s uncles (Andrew and Edward) would jump ahead of him in the succession, even if Charles never becomes king. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/185 "2016-05-11T19:29:46Z")
You are right, I was mistaken. I was just reading about how the crown passed down to prince Maekar after all his older brothers and their children had died. So Aegon the Unlikely was even more unlikely than I realized since Baelor’s and Rhaegel’s sons came before Maekar in the line of succession. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/186 "2016-05-11T19:47:25Z")
> [@robby](#): > > There is no circumstance in which William’s uncles (Andrew and Edward) would jump ahead of him in the succession, even if Charles never becomes king. Unless one of them gets his hands **really** bloody. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/187 "2016-05-11T20:21:21Z")
> [@robby](#): > > There is no circumstance in which William’s uncles (Andrew and Edward) would jump ahead of him in the succession, even if Charles never becomes king. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Unless one of them gets his hands **really** bloody. Well, in that case, they wouldn’t exactly be jumping ahead of William in the succession; instead, they’d simply be eliminating those ahead in the succession. That said, there actually is at least one circumstance in which someone would drop out of the succession, and that is if they either convert to Catholicism or marry a Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/188 "2016-05-11T20:33:50Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Ned doesn’t know there’s a child at this point. His sister was kidnapped quite a long while ago… How long had it been in the books, anyway? More than a year? > [@Stanislaus](#): > > Yes, but why? She’s not Rhaegar’s wife. She’s not in danger from Ned. If Rhaegar is dead, she’s not going back to him in any case. Why is it so important that Lyanna be protected by the people sworn to protect the royal family (of which she is not a member)… A Kingsguard knight is going to follow orders and protect who he’s been told to protect by the crown prince unless or until relieved by someone with the authority to do so (the king himself, the crown prince or, I suppose, the lord commander of the Kingsguard). > [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > …I was thinking the Tower of Joy was before the sack of King’s Landing… As did I. Was it afterwards in the books, too? > [@Stanislaus](#): > > …Ned would never, ever stand to see his sister’s child killed. Not a chance. And whether he could convince the Kingsguard of that or not, he could at least mention it when he’s trying to talk them out of fighting him… Ned is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. He could not with absolute certainty guarantee the child’s safety forever against a determined and dynastically-paranoid king. > [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > Bigamy wouldn’t even be required for Jon to be legit. Rhaegar could have had a septon anull his marriage to Elia when he married Lyanna. Anything goes if you’re a Targaryen. That’s what I was thinking, too. Red tape has a way of getting speedily cut when you’re royalty in a hurry. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/189 "2016-05-11T21:27:47Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Looks like a new Arianne chapter (as she’s getting closer to Aegon and Connington storming Storm’s End) has been put up on GRRM’s site. Hmm, where is the “Song of Ice and Fire” thread anyways: > > [Excerpt from the Winds of Winter | George R.R. Martin](http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/) Woohoo, thanks for that. Good to see Dorne’s still interesting in the books at least. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/190 "2016-05-11T22:25:07Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Woohoo, thanks for that. Good to see Dorne’s still interesting in the books at least. Also a nice reminder (I wonder if it was intentional) of one of the best characters in the series who also happens to be a character the show decided not to cast. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/191 "2016-05-11T23:33:12Z")
I seem to remember from the book that not only that Targs in the past have slept with their direct relatives, but they’ve also married multiple people… ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/192 "2016-05-11T23:37:40Z")
BTW, was I the only one to go: “Hang on, the three eye crow just said he was 1000 years old. Thus the virtually accepted idea of him being Bloodraven, a Sorcerous Blackfyre called Brynden Rivers, Hand of the King, Lord commander of the nightwatch, is pretty much a no there. Given the timescales would be about 100 years max… Hmmmn…”? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/193 "2016-05-11T23:40:32Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > How long had it been in the books, anyway? More than a year? Brandon and Rickard died in 282. Lyanna died in 283. It’s at least 9 months, but less than 2 years. I think Robb was very young when Ned gets back from the war so probably closer to a year. > [@](#): > > As did I. Was it afterwards in the books, too? The Tower of Joy is one of the last acts in the War of the Usurper. Robert Kills Rhaegar at the Trident. Then Ned heads to King’s Landing as Tywin sacks the city. Then Ned heads to Storm’s end to life the seige against Stannis. Then he heads to the ToJ. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/194 "2016-05-11T23:43:09Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > BTW, was I the only one to go: > > “Hang on, the three eye crow just said he was 1000 years old. Thus the virtually accepted idea of him being Bloodraven, a Sorcerous Blackfyre called Brynden Rivers, Hand of the King, Lord commander of the nightwatch, is pretty much a no there. Given the timescales would be about 100 years max… Hmmmn…”? ~125 years, according to the Wiki. But as he has never been mentioned in the show, no reason why they can’t scale it up, or leave his origins ambiguous. Either that or he’s trying to hard to impress a teenage boy who he invited into his cave to take drugs and trip balls. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/195 "2016-05-11T23:55:27Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > BTW, was I the only one to go: > > “Hang on, the three eye crow just said he was 1000 years old. Thus the virtually accepted idea of him being Bloodraven, a Sorcerous Blackfyre called Brynden Rivers, Hand of the King, Lord commander of the nightwatch, is pretty much a no there. Given the timescales would be about 100 years max… Hmmmn…”? It’s Bloodraven. He was either exaggerating or it’s a continuing error, but that’s absolutely Bloodraven. It’d be beyond ridiculous if there was another former Night’s Watchman with the same birthmark, one eye, albinism, and uses the same catchphrase. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/196 "2016-05-12T00:55:35Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > I seem to remember from the book that not only that Targs in the past have slept with their direct relatives, but they’ve also married multiple people… Aegon the Conqueror married both his sisters. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/197 "2016-05-12T01:04:32Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > It’s Bloodraven. He was either exaggerating or it’s a continuing error, but that’s absolutely Bloodraven. It’d be beyond ridiculous if there was another former Night’s Watchman with the same birthmark, one eye, albinism, and uses the same catchphrase. I’m positive it was a continuity error at best. At worst it’s They Just Didn’t Care. Regardless of which it is, unless it was a poetic metaphor or a hint of some dark Randall Flagg-esque aspect to the story we haven’t seen yet, it’s a good example of why we can’t depend on the show to give us much insight into the as-yet unpublished and unwritten books. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/198 "2016-05-12T01:26:48Z")
Perhaps Bloodraven has been time traveling for 1000 years. His visions may only last a few seconds of real time. Kinda like Narnia 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/199 "2016-05-12T03:09:51Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > BTW, was I the only one to go: > > “Hang on, the three eye crow just said he was 1000 years old. Thus the virtually accepted idea of him being Bloodraven, a Sorcerous Blackfyre called Brynden Rivers, Hand of the King, Lord commander of the nightwatch, is pretty much a no there. Given the timescales would be about 100 years max… Hmmmn…”? > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > It’s Bloodraven. He was either exaggerating or it’s a continuing error, but that’s absolutely Bloodraven. It’d be beyond ridiculous if there was another former Night’s Watchman with the same birthmark, one eye, albinism, and uses the same catchphrase. Yeah, but the show Three Eyed Raven (interesting it’s “three eyed raven” rather than “three eyed crow” as it was in the books) doesn’t have the birthmark or one eye, unless I’ve missed something. In addition, it appears the show is completely uninterested in the Blackfyre Rebellion. So no need for Lord Bloodraven - oh, who btw, was NOT a Blackfyre. He was a loyalist. It would require too much backstory that the show doesn’t seem interested in getting involved in. The other option is that it is Bloodraven and they won’t make a huge deal of his history, just that he was famous, but the 1000 year mark will be something like the history of all the greenseers, 1000 years of greenseers, with Bloodraven being there for the last 125 years of it. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/200 "2016-05-12T03:34:54Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Yeah, but the show Three Eyed Raven (interesting it’s “three eyed raven” rather than “three eyed crow” as it was in the books) doesn’t have the birthmark or one eye, unless I’ve missed something. He doesn’t have the birthmark, but he did say he has a thousand eyes and one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=11)