# Game of Thrones Season 6 open show/book discussion thread \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058 "2016-04-25T02:16:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/281 "2016-05-19T02:06:01Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > How do you know that it ever had a spell cast on it? As I said, I don’t see any reason to believe that it was anything more than a magic trick. No spell required. OK, we clearly have different ideas of what constitutes a “magic trick” (and damnit Michael, they’re illusions! A trick is something a whore does for money) in a world where magic actually exists. As it’s explained in the books, she casts what Martin calls a glamor, which changes its appearance and makes it radiate light. We see this in the show too in the aforementioned scene. The “trick” part is that it’s purely aesthetic, and Mel is disappointed that it doesn’t actually emanate _heat_ as well as light. But we _are_ talking about _actual_ magic, whether you want to call it a “spell” or a “glamor” or whatever else, that’s just an issue of semantics. There is clearly magic being applied and it’s not a “trick” in the sense of it not being “real”. It’s not a hidden compartment with LEDs in it. It’s magic. I don’t know what you think a “magic trick” would even mean in this world as you conceive of it, or how you would differentiate that from a “spell”. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/282 "2016-05-19T02:58:21Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But the story arc didn’t end with Robb’s death. We’re still discussing whether "the North will remember"or not, how the people who betrayed him will meet their demise, how his siblings will avenge his death, what Lady Stoneheart will do, how the Starks/Tullys will reclaim their domains, etc… > > No such thing with Stannis. He and everything related to him disappeared in a puff of smoke. It’s as if he never existed in the show. Even his most loyal companion seems mostly uninterested and immediately turned towards someone else. > > On top of which, Stannis story arc lasted much longer than Robb’s. All these scenes featuring him, his family, his armies… for several years and his only contribution to the story is having won a battle against the wildlings, saving Jon’s ass? He could have been given five minutes of screen time for an identical result. > > It reminds me of the prince of Dorne in the books whose expedition we followed for several chapters only to see him being roasted by a dragon as soon as he arrived. Except much worse. > > We could also have seen Bran being killed by the reanimated skeletons before he could meet the three eyed raven, or Danaerys being executed by the Khals during the last episode. You could still say “that’s just how the story goes”, but it hardly would be satisfying, would it? You burn your daughter alive for some Essos God…after killing your brother with shadow magic, and a bunch of priests of a more widely worshipped pantheon… well…there’s a line somewhere and his end is a perfectly satisfying conclusion. Hell, his army acted just like Team Stannis did. They evaporated after Shireens death. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/283 "2016-05-19T03:50:39Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It reminds me of the prince of Dorne in the books whose expedition we followed for several chapters only to see him being roasted by a dragon as soon as he arrived. Except much worse. > [@lisiate](#): > > Exactly, the ‘Quentyn-ization’ of Stannis is the second most irritating thing about the show for me at this stage. It’s still not as annoying as what the show did to Dorne though. Brilliant comparison! I was thinking of the right way to express my disdain for how the show has treated Stannis’s demise. Though Quentyn I could somewhat understand as a plot point showing Doran’s long ranged plan and it was only like 5 chapters. Fine. But not fucking Stannis! He’s been around since the 2nd season / 2nd book. He’s Ned’s chosen heir and then… what… he loses and his entire story arc (in the show) was to save the Wall from the Wildlings and bring Melissandre and Davos to Castle Black and that’s it?! It’s a bit ridiculous for such a prominent character - deaths of other prominent characters reverberated through the books/episodes. We are still dealing with quite important events directly stemming from Robb’s and Joffery’s deaths. Then again, the show always seemed to really dislike Stannis and portray him in the worst light it possibly could. There was no attempts to show his positive qualities. To show how he trusted Davos to tell him the truth and not be a yes man (they made him more antagonist to Davos instead). Not even the “… I should have been saving the realm to win the throne” speech. They just made him into a minor villain from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/284 "2016-05-19T04:19:23Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > …It reminds me of the prince of Dorne in the books whose expedition we followed for several chapters only to see him being roasted by a dragon as soon as he arrived. Except much worse… What are these books of which you speak? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/285 "2016-05-19T04:26:05Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What are these books of which you speak? Have you checked the title of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/286 "2016-05-19T13:11:29Z")
Oops! Wrong thread. Sorry. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/287 "2016-05-19T16:34:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What are these books of which you speak? Hey, haven’t seen you in the LOTR/Hobbit non-book discussion thread in a while. what’s up with that? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/288 "2016-05-19T20:03:33Z")
Too busy getting my wires crossed. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/289 "2016-05-20T03:49:02Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Yes - I’m having trouble finding a reference clip/still, but I want to say early S5 (maybe 5.02?), shortly after Stannis has set up shop in Castle Black. I distinctly recall a scene where he unsheaths it in front of a crowd of soldiers who ooh and aah at it’s glowy shininess. I’m pretty sure I’m not imagining it - does anyone else remember that scene? I have no recollection of Stannis’s sword being magical in any way. Perhaps it was just in the books. ---
**Author:** ![troub](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troub/32/14802_2.png) [@troub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troub)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/290 "2016-05-20T15:16:43Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I have no recollection of Stannis’s sword being magical in any way. Perhaps it was just in the books. I think the only thing we see of it is back on Dragonstone in Season 2, Episode 1…they’re burning the statues of the 7 as a sacrifice to the LoL, and Stannis pulls the burning sword out of the fire. Which is supposed to be a sign that he’s the one. [Pretty much the best screengrab I can find right now, hopefully the link works.](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TsILywM5Yc4/VyKWVLAiYoI/AAAAAAAARLU/ZwO-P8nJKSELyXN0S9aDHAgDs31uWkFEgCLcB/s1600/Lightbringer_2-2.png) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/291 "2016-05-20T15:57:25Z")
In the show it appears to be a PR stunt - someone uses some sort of flammable liquid and sets a sword alight so that they can perform the ritual - rather than ever being shown to be actual magic or significant in any way. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/292 "2016-05-20T21:47:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > In the show it appears to be a PR stunt - someone uses some sort of flammable liquid and sets a sword alight so that they can perform the ritual - rather than ever being shown to be actual magic or significant in any way. I didn’t perceive it this way. I saw it as some minor magic used on the sword. And Beric Dendarion similarly set his sword alight, this time using his own blood. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/293 "2016-05-20T22:08:58Z")
Btw, on another note, I really like this Vox article: > **[Why I think Game of Thrones will make Daenerys the villain, not the hero](https://www.vox.com/2016/5/20/11714002/game-of-thrones-daenerys-villain-dany)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... > [@](#): > > it gives me the chance to restate one of my favorite Game of Thrones theories: that Dany will not end up being the hero we root for to conquer Westeros. Instead, she’ll become a villain — maybe even the villain. He actually lays out why he thinks this may be the case, and perhaps one of the most shocking of GRRM’s twists in the storyline (it centers on the idea that Dany who has been trying to rule in Meereen realizes that violence is the only thing that has ever worked for her). I think this really needs to happen. Martin has made a reputation in his series with subverting fantasy tropes. The chosen one, driven into exile, coming back to claim the throne that was lost is definitely a cliche. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/294 "2016-05-20T23:41:20Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I didn’t perceive it this way. I saw it as some minor magic used on the sword. > > And Beric Dendarion similarly set his sword alight, this time using his own blood. I didn’t even notice Stannis’ sword at the time, and I thought it was made pretty explicit that Beric’s flaming sword was mundane, not magical. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/295 "2016-05-21T05:07:03Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > …Dany who has been trying to rule in Meereen realizes that violence is the only thing that has ever worked for her [and becomes the villain]). > > I think this really needs to happen. Martin has made a reputation in his series with subverting fantasy tropes. The chosen one, driven into exile, coming back to claim the throne that was lost is definitely a cliche. Intriguing. I can see that working. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/296 "2016-05-21T15:19:06Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I didn’t even notice Stannis’ sword at the time, and I thought it was made pretty explicit that Beric’s flaming sword was mundane, not magical. Not sure about the show, but in the book Beric’s sword was definitely magical. He wiped his blood on it and then it took flame. I get the impression there are different kinds of magic in Westeros. First, there is “magic” that is nothing more than a magician’s parlor tricks. In Melisandre’s chapter in ADWD she talks about the powders she carries in hidden pockets to create sparks and flashes of light. Then there’s magic that changes how people perceive things. Melisandre’s glamours, the faceless men’s changing faces, and Stannis’s sword are second variety magic. Finally, there is true magic, where supernatural powers have an effect on the physical world. Beric’s sword taking flame from his blood would fall under the 3rd category, as would shadow demon babies and Dany’s fire immunity. There are some things that are deliberately ambiguous, like most of the prophecies, dreams, and Melisandre’s blood sacrifice magic. We have zero proof that her blood leeches had anything to do with the deaths of 3 kings, or can cause favorable wind for Stannis’s fleet, or even can stop a snowstorm near Winterfell. Those could have all been coincidences. It is mentioned several times in the books that magic has very recently increased in power, most likely linked to the return of dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/297 "2016-05-21T15:27:01Z")
I like the idea of Dany becoming an unintentional villain upon returning to Westeros. Really, the only reason any of our “hero” characters would have to support her would be uniting against a common enemy, the Lannisters, and the Lannisters have pretty much managed to destroy themselves. I could imagine Dorne allying themselves with Dany but every other major house unites against her. Then the story becomes how the dragons must be defeated this time – the opposite of the Aegon the Conqueror situation. Rather than history repeating itself, the people must rise up to prevent the repeat of history. The Stark’s warging capabilities take on a whole new meaning if they are used to oppose dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/298 "2016-05-21T15:29:46Z")
Thoros of Myr was using wildfire to make his sword into a flaming sword at the tournament. I can’t recall the exact description of what happened with Stannis, but my impression was that it was a similar trick engineered by Melisandre and not a sign of true magic. Beric Dondarrion’s flaming sword much later was a very different case. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/299 "2016-05-21T16:09:37Z")
Actually now that I think of it, Stannis’s sword was described as being charred and burnt. So whatever Melisandre did, it involved actual fire, not just a visual glamor. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/300 "2016-05-21T16:27:26Z")
> [@Sterling\_Archer](#): > > I like the idea of Dany becoming an unintentional villain upon returning to Westeros. Really, the only reason any of our “hero” characters would have to support her would be uniting against a common enemy, the Lannisters, and the Lannisters have pretty much managed to destroy themselves. I could imagine Dorne allying themselves with Dany but every other major house unites against her. Then the story becomes how the dragons must be defeated this time – the opposite of the Aegon the Conqueror situation. Rather than history repeating itself, the people must rise up to prevent the repeat of history. The Stark’s warging capabilities take on a whole new meaning if they are used to oppose dragons. The Starks would, of course, have no reason to trust a Targaryen exile. Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion, and I’d bet Dany wouldn’t be ok with them peacefully existing, but would want them to bend the knee or else. Wouldn’t it fascinating to see Sansa and Jon join with the Lannisters to take down Dany? I actually considered a really easy way to make the turn of Dany from hero to villain - she comes back Meereen, learns of Tyrion’s ‘deal’, gets outraged and kills Tyrion. The reaction from the viewing public would be severe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=16)