# Game of Thrones Season 6 open show/book discussion thread \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058 "2016-04-25T02:16:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/21 "2016-04-26T02:37:50Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > I completely agree. I very much enjoyed the reveal of Doran’s subtle scheming in close collaboration with Oberyn to the Sand Snakes in the last book. It added a layer of intrigue and deep plotting to a saga rich in such touches. It also allowed the Sand Snakes to graduate from bloodthirsty poisoners and single-minded pursuers of vengeance to being a part of Doran’s larger scheme as he brings it to the next level. > [@JSexton](#): > > Agreed with the above. book-Doran was first presented as others see him, weak and spineless. Then we get to see how he’s been using his mind to build a grand revenge all this time, and it’s incredible, a worthy match for Tyrion’s cunning. And Hotah was also a wonderful character in his own right. Indeed. I (still) can’t wait to read how Doran uses Aegon’s appearance (whether real Aegon or fake Aegon, it doesn’t particularly matter) to further his plans. I mean, Hell, Arianne can be the center of a marriage deal with the Targaryens once again, and the Lannisters and Martells busy fighting off the Faith which Cersei unleashed will be completely unable to do anything in Stormlands, especially with Dorne backing them. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/22 "2016-04-26T02:38:50Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Is Stannis really dead? Are my wife and I the only ones who aren’t entirely sure? I think he is dead, but… Brienne didn’t burn him, did she? Because Stannis may return in a far more horrifying way than anyone could have possibly imagined. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/23 "2016-04-26T03:04:32Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I think he is dead, but… Brienne didn’t burn him, did she? Because Stannis may return in a far more horrifying way than anyone could have possibly imagined. Bolton’s men found Stannis’s corpse. Also Winterfell is far enough South that the dead don’t reanimate. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/24 "2016-04-26T04:24:46Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > I completely agree. I very much enjoyed the reveal of Doran’s subtle scheming in close collaboration with Oberyn to the Sand Snakes in the last book. It added a layer of intrigue and deep plotting to a saga rich in such touches. It also allowed the Sand Snakes to graduate from bloodthirsty poisoners and single-minded pursuers of vengeance to being a part of Doran’s larger scheme as he brings it to the next level. > [@JSexton](#): > > Agreed with the above. book-Doran was first presented as others see him, weak and spineless. Then we get to see how he’s been using his mind to build a grand revenge all this time, and it’s incredible, a worthy match for Tyrion’s cunning. And Hotah was also a wonderful character in his own right. I read the books, but don’t remember a lot about this - refresher on what the plan was please? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/25 "2016-04-26T04:27:07Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Is Stannis really dead? Are my wife and I the only ones who aren’t entirely sure? > [@alphaboi867](#): > > Bolton’s men found Stannis’s corpse. Also Winterfell is far enough South that the dead don’t reanimate. Weird that was never shown though (in addition to not showing Stannis’ execution itself last season). All we got was a line from Roose Bolton saying he died, and they don’t even know who killed him. If they really acquired Stannis’ body, they’d definitely want to put his head on display for everyone to see. It’s peculiar how the show is being so shifty about it. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/26 "2016-04-26T09:50:36Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > and Areo just seems lame. This is my issue with the episode. Another great lion character goes out like a mouse. Third one, as far as I’m concerned: Barristan (greatest fighter of the age, old but still good, taken out by three clowns) Stannis (greatest tactician in Westeros, had all his armys stuff stolen by “20 good men”) And Areo Hotah? The character in the book seemed to be some sort of expert warrior combined with the intelligence and guile of Varys, having no problem tracking plots and dealing with them. This time, big lug with big weapon, stuck in the back. If like Varys, he’d have know. If warrior, he’d have put up far more of a fight (and not turned his back on anyone). ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/27 "2016-04-26T10:36:41Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I read the books, but don’t remember a lot about this - refresher on what the plan was please? His daughter Arianne, along with a small group of loyal friends, kidnaps Myrcella and plans to have her crowned Queen of Westeros, since under Dornish law she, as Tommen’s older sister, would have priority over him in the line of succession after Joffrey’s death. The plot is foiled, Myrcella is wounded by the treacherous Gerold Dayne, the Dark Star, and Arianne is placed under house (tower) arrest by her father. He summons her and the older Sand Snakes and reveals his plans to them: Arianne had been secretly betrothed to Vicerys (wow, autocorrect is on the verge of a nervous breakdown with all these GoT names) years before and Doran has been working behind the scenes to restore House Targaryan, so as to get revenge for the death of his sister and her children. His son Quentyn (seriously, autocorrect, give it a rest) is secretly sent to Daenerys to bring her to Dorne and with a proposal of marriage to her. Dorne has a seat on the Small Council, and after revealing his intentions and securing their pledges of loyalty, Doran sends Nymeria to take that seat in his absence and Tyene to the Sept of Baelor so that they are both in place in King’s Landing. Doran and Oberyn had been working closely together, the one subtly and the other more openly, but together and towards the same ends. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/28 "2016-04-26T12:04:34Z")
Really disappointed in the Dorne storyline – I wonder if the writers had originally planned something more involved, but with how poorly it was received last season, they decided to just kill it. But even so, they could have killed it in a different way – just have Doran and Hotah capture and imprison/execute the Sand Snakes, have Trystane return safely, and then they can sit tight until Daenerys arrives. This way we’d get more Siddig and Obapei (or whatever his names is), who are far less annoying characters than the Sand Snakes. Now I assume that the Sand Snakes will sit tight and consolidate power until Dany arrives. The rest of the episode was great, I thought – the Brienne rescue in particular was terrific (finally something good happens to Sansa!). ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/29 "2016-04-26T14:58:27Z")
I read it somewhere else that Milisandre was giving up her life force that Jon Snow might live. I haven’t seen this anywhere else. She did look like she was on suicide watch. And it was her time to make her own personal sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/30 "2016-04-26T17:57:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The rest of the episode was great, I thought – the Brienne rescue in particular was terrific (finally something good happens to Sansa!). Couldn’t agree more, I started to well up watching that. It’s good to see Sansa finally has some muscle. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/31 "2016-04-26T18:11:38Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Also Winterfell is far enough South that the dead don’t reanimate. As Winter is moving south (the massive snowstorm Stannis ran into on the way to Winterfell seemingly being a part of that), how sure are we of this anymore… of course that would mean the entire army would become wights, but I just want to see ice Stannis dammit!! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/32 "2016-04-26T19:24:19Z")
[Found this gallery of book vs TV characters fun and interesting.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/04/06/game-of-thrones-how-characters-look-in-the-show-vs-how-they-look) The biggest differences I think are how the show aged up all the kids by about 5 years and The Imp is no where near as disfigured on TV. It has been stated more than once that GRRM has explained to the showrunners how everything will end up. This makes it obvious to me that Martin’s writing needs a much heavier editing hand. The fake Sansa, the double fake Dorne ruler, Brienne and Pod’s endless wandering for no reason, Tyrion’s long and boring boat ride in Essos (which also included the very unneccessary and quickly dispatched future Dorne King). . . Why, George, why? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/33 "2016-04-28T03:06:23Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Thanks SB. > > I’m a book reader, but managed to miss the [clues that Melisandre was using glamour](http://www.vox.com/2016/4/24/11495384/game-of-thrones-red-woman-recap-melisandre-old). > > Anyone see that coming? I sorta did, or at least had considered the possibility. I was more expecting something with her disguising herself as the Onion Knight. > [@](#): > > Onobjects and creating glamours: (emphasis mine) > > “The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, _ **a bag of fingerbones.** _ With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.” And wasn’t there something about his having lost them? > [@alphaboi867](#): > > Maybe she’ll just use glamour to appear as Jon Snow from now on. And at the same time still take strip naked at the drop and instinctively try to seduce any man “he” comes across that might have royal blood. 😉 My thought has been, what if they start to undress him and suddenly the corpse isn’t Jon Snow anymore? Given the above, I’m now noticing that Davos is suddenly leading Jon’s pack, and they are all following him as if it’s perfectly natural. Hmmnnnn . . . > [@Biggirl](#): > > . . . This makes it obvious to me that Martin’s writing needs a much heavier editing hand. The fake Sansa, the double fake Dorne ruler, Brienne and Pod’s endless wandering for no reason, Tyrion’s long and boring boat ride in Essos (which also included the very unneccessary and quickly dispatched future Dorne King). . . Why, George, why? Some of us love a long winding immersive tale with twists and turns and reams of creative description and world-building insights. If you don’t like that, I recommend Bujold or Bradbury. You’ll probably want to skip Asimov. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/34 "2016-04-28T03:19:21Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Some of us love a long winding immersive tale with twists and turns and reams of creative description and world-building insights. If you don’t like that, I recommend Bujold or Bradbury. You’ll probably want to skip Asimov. Agreed, 100% On re-read, I LOVED A Feast for Crows and really enjoyed A Dance with Dragons. So I have no complaints about George’s plot decisions. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/35 "2016-04-28T04:05:32Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > It has been stated more than once that GRRM has explained to the showrunners how everything will end up. This makes it obvious to me that Martin’s writing needs a much heavier editing hand. The fake Sansa, the double fake Dorne ruler, Brienne and Pod’s endless wandering for no reason, Tyrion’s long and boring boat ride in Essos (which also included the very unneccessary and quickly dispatched future Dorne King). . . Why, George, why? Legitimate concerns, but I think the main thing is that he’s not a fan of Chekhov’s gun. He likes red herrings where things don’t work out perfectly or at all, or the POV focuses on a character who provides flavor but no plot. Some people _need_ the gun to go off, and I respect that, but I like his approach sometimes as well. As far as _Crows_ goes, I think it was especially the least popular book because people had to wait 11 years (!) to hear back from some characters, and by “some characters” we all know that I mean Tyrion. > [@TruCelt](#): > > My thought has been, what if they start to undress him and suddenly the corpse isn’t Jon Snow anymore? I hope you’re wrong, although that is a possibility. It seems a little “autistic dream.” > [@](#): > > Given the above, I’m now noticing that Davos is suddenly leading Jon’s pack, and they are all following him as if it’s perfectly natural. Hmmnnnn . . . Because he’s badass. Also because he’s the oldest in the group of Snow loyalists, from what I can remember. Dolorous Edd and anyone else important? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/36 "2016-04-29T21:46:42Z")
Don’t know if this was posted before, but it’s a fantastic article on how the show completely misunderstands the Song of Ice and Fire’s view on violence: [A Song of Ice and Fire condemns violence, but Game of Thrones is just plain in love with it](http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/28/11518166/game-of-thrones-violence-books-vs-show-dorne) > [@](#): > > The genius of George R. R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire isn’t his prose — which is often rote — it’s his world building, and his ability to craft a story in which every action has consequences and carries thematic weight. No act of violence just happens — it is caused, and that in turn causes more. > > HBO’s adaptation of the series maintained much of this violence critique in its earlier seasons, letting characters opine at length about the Mad King and Robert’s Rebellion to provide the context viewers needed. But as we’ve plodded into the later seasons of Game of Thrones, showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss seem to be abandoning this throughline. The shift is making a complex and thoughtful story into something of a boring, pedestrian gorefest. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/37 "2016-04-29T22:15:01Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Don’t know if this was posted before, but it’s a fantastic article on how the show completely misunderstands the Song of Ice and Fire’s view on violence: > > [A Song of Ice and Fire condemns violence, but Game of Thrones is just plain in love with it](http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/28/11518166/game-of-thrones-violence-books-vs-show-dorne) I disagree completely. There are thematic connections between: Killing Renly, The Red Wedding, Poisoning Joffrey, Killing Jon, Killing Myrcella and now the murder of Doran and his son. It involves whether humanity is worth saving when it keeps flouting “the rules” to justify the ends and to supposedly avoid more bloodshed. Even bugs are smart enough to stop warring when winter is coming. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/38 "2016-04-29T22:19:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Really disappointed in the Dorne storyline – I wonder if the writers had originally planned something more involved, but with how poorly it was received last season, they decided to just kill it. But even so, they could have killed it in a different way – just have Doran and Hotah capture and imprison/execute the Sand Snakes, have Trystane return safely, and then they can sit tight until Daenerys arrives. This way we’d get more Siddig and Obapei (or whatever his names is), who are far less annoying characters than the Sand Snakes. Now I assume that the Sand Snakes will sit tight and consolidate power until Dany arrives. > > The rest of the episode was great, I thought – the Brienne rescue in particular was terrific (finally something good happens to Sansa!). My ONLY objection to all that was…when will we see Sansa grow into a force to be reckoned with? She has to be rescued, she has to be helped across the stream, she has to be reminded the words. I mean its realistic perhaps, but at some point the viewer says, “Why are we invested in her? Just because she’s a Stark? EVERYONE who tired to help her is more interesting than her.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/39 "2016-04-29T22:23:19Z")
Excellent article ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/40 "2016-04-29T22:46:16Z")
I agree, Tiffany’s article really sums up how I feel about the direction the show has taken. [Preston Jacobs](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA)has been making a similar point (in between his crazy theorizing) on his youtube channel as well. At every turn the showrunners have chosen to go for shock value over any sort of subtlety. while it makes for exciting television it’s really ripped the heart out of Martin’s story. At this point I see the showrunners being engaged in a massive game of ‘story-Jenga,’ taking pieces of plot from Martin’s work and stacking them on top of an increasingly tottering edifice. While this worked for the first 3 or 4 seasons, they’ve reached a point where their additions and alterations have really tested the structural integrity of Martin’s books and I really can’t see how they will manage to avoid the whole thing collapsing into a jumbled mess. Indeed I think we’re starting to see this happen already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=3)