# Game of Thrones Season 6 open show/book discussion thread \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058 "2016-04-25T02:16:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/461 "2016-06-13T19:12:41Z")
I was disappointed by Jamie’s speech to Edmure. Neither his discussion of Cersei and Cat and how much they loved their kids or how much he loves Cersei had anything to do with anything, it just felt very disjointed without really having any kind of point other than “oh btw go open the gates or fuck you”. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/462 "2016-06-14T02:50:23Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I was disappointed by Jamie’s speech to Edmure. Neither his discussion of Cersei and Cat and how much they loved their kids or how much he loves Cersei had anything to do with anything, it just felt very disjointed without really having any kind of point other than “oh btw go open the gates or fuck you”. Funny, I had the exact opposite reaction, I thought he broke through to Edmure by putting it in terms he could understand even though Edmure didn’t want to listen. Jaime compares Cersei to Cat based on their willingness to go to war and ruthlessly destroy their enemies in order to protect their children. Then Jaime says that he shares this same destructive quality, only its driven by being with Cersei. And the destruction he will cause will fall on House Tully, beginning with Edmure’s son and ending with, well, the end of House Tully. Like Jaime said to the Frey chump, don’t make threats you’re not willing to carry out; it’s perfectly clear to Edmure that Jaime will have no problem carrying this one out. Interestingly, it’s a move that his father would have made, we don’t usually say that about Jaime. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/463 "2016-06-14T03:25:59Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I see a lot of anti-Edmure comments around the internet. He’s a wuss and all that, but didn’t he make the intelligent move? Yeah, Blackfish was going to fight it out, and maybe keep the Lannisters and Freys tied up for 2 years, but at the end of it, Jaime was basically threatening to go all Rains of Castamere on the Tullys. In the end, keeping your house alive is probably a much smarter move than going all out in a blaze of glory. Eh, it’s unclear to me. Perhaps he knows what a shit show King’s Landing is. There’s a decent chance that the Lannisters aren’t in power in 2 years. Everyone hates the Freys. Lots can change in 2 years. It’s not like there’s much of a house left. They still lose Riverrun and their legacy is demolished. Edmure will live his life in captivity. If the goal is to preserve the Tully house, and those of their bannermen, you can’t surrender. If the goal is to have the greatest amount of men life to old age, then surrender is probably the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/464 "2016-06-14T08:04:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I breakdown why your objections are based on a misunderstanding [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19402072&postcount=114). I mean, it just changes it to “Arya baited the waif, fucked up in a really inexplicably stupid way once, then just got lucky over and over again, acted like a superhero even with a mortal wound, and the waif acted like the worst assassin ever” There’s no salvaging anything but eye-rolling terribleness from that whole mess. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/465 "2016-06-14T09:04:41Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I mean, it just changes it to “Arya baited the waif, fucked up in a really inexplicably stupid way once, then just got lucky over and over again, acted like a superhero even with a mortal wound, and the waif acted like the worst assassin ever” > > There’s no salvaging anything but eye-rolling terribleness from that whole mess. No, it’s Arya got sloppy, nearly got killed and barely got away. No baiting. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/466 "2016-06-14T15:21:57Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > Funny, I had the exact opposite reaction, I thought he broke through to Edmure by putting it in terms he could understand even though Edmure didn’t want to listen. Jaime compares Cersei to Cat based on their willingness to go to war and ruthlessly destroy their enemies in order to protect their children. Then Jaime says that he shares this same destructive quality, only its driven by being with Cersei. And the destruction he will cause will fall on House Tully, beginning with Edmure’s son and ending with, well, the end of House Tully. Like Jaime said to the Frey chump, don’t make threats you’re not willing to carry out; it’s perfectly clear to Edmure that Jaime will have no problem carrying this one out. > > Interestingly, it’s a move that his father would have made, we don’t usually say that about Jaime. I thought the way he did it in the books is far more Tywin like. He doesn’t do it by declaring his love for Cersei (isn’t that supposed to be something you’d want to keep under wraps?), but by telling him how Lannisters deal with rebels and then gets someone to play the Rains of Castamere. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/467 "2016-06-14T15:24:17Z")
IIRC, doesn’t he receive a letter from Cersei pleaing for help and ignore it? In the books, he’s realized Cersei has been manipulating him as she does everyone else, and he rejects it. In the show he’s given up all that development and is back to “anything for Cersei!” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/468 "2016-06-14T15:25:00Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > It’s not like there’s much of a house left. They still lose Riverrun and their legacy is demolished. Edmure will live his life in captivity. If the goal is to preserve the Tully house, and those of their bannermen, you can’t surrender. If the goal is to have the greatest amount of men life to old age, then surrender is probably the way to go. The bannermen are already gone. The vast majority of pledged themselves to the crown (and to the Freys who are now the Lords Paramount of the Riverlands). All that were left were Tully soldiers. If you survive you have a shot of doing something in the future. If you are all dead and your castle burned to the ground and salted, then you are just part of a song. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/469 "2016-06-14T15:26:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > IIRC, doesn’t he receive a letter from Cersei pleaing for help and ignore it? In the books, he’s realized Cersei has been manipulating him as she does everyone else, and he rejects it. In the show he’s given up all that development and is back to “anything for Cersei!” Yep. I think he realizes that his love for Cersei and his “do anything for you” type of mentality has made him into a person he doesn’t like. Now, granted, becoming more Tywin-like doesn’t necessarily a good person make, but at least he’s in charge of his own destiny that way. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/470 "2016-06-14T15:29:56Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > IIRC, doesn’t he receive a letter from Cersei pleaing for help and ignore it? In the books, he’s realized Cersei has been manipulating him as she does everyone else, and he rejects it. In the show he’s given up all that development and is back to “anything for Cersei!” Yes, his book character is far more sympathetic at this point, growing and moving forward, while show Jaime keeps sliding back to where he started. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/471 "2016-06-14T16:29:05Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > If you are all dead and your castle burned to the ground and salted, then you are just part of a song. Why would the Lannisters destroy the Frey castle? If you surrender, the Tully house is done. If you don’t, then there’s a chance, however slight, of not being done. Depends on how you weigh honor and legacy vs your life. For the individual soldiers, there’s no house name or castle either way, so yeah, they should prefer surrender. Unless, maybe, you’re some sort of minor lord that could be forced to go to the wall. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/472 "2016-06-14T16:58:37Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I thought the way he did it in the books is far more Tywin like. He doesn’t do it by declaring his love for Cersei (isn’t that supposed to be something you’d want to keep under wraps?), but by telling him how Lannisters deal with rebels and then gets someone to play the Rains of Castamere. Exactly. This is the actual quote: > [@](#): > > You’ve seen our numbers, Edmure. You’ve seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you’ll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I’ll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I’m done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here. Your wife may whelp before that. You’ll want your child, I expect. I’ll send him to you when he’s born. With a trebuchet. That’s SO much better than what we got. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/473 "2016-06-14T17:16:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Why would the Lannisters destroy the Frey castle? To make an example of them. Why raise the castle of Castamere, when the castle would have belonged to the Lannisters after the Reynes were slaughtered. And it isn’t a Frey castle. It’s a Tully castle, who are the bannermen of the Freys. It’s as much of a Frey castle as Karhold is a Stark castle. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/474 "2016-06-14T17:34:30Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > To make an example of them. Why raise the castle of Castamere, when the castle would have belonged to the Lannisters after the Reynes were slaughtered. > > And it isn’t a Frey castle. It’s a Tully castle, who are the bannermen of the Freys. It’s as much of a Frey castle as Karhold is a Stark castle. No, it’s 100% a Frey castle. It was given to them for their cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/475 "2016-06-14T18:14:53Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > No, it’s 100% a Frey castle. It was given to them for their cooperation. Oh sorry, you are right. It was given to Emmon Frey. But, the Freys are powerless next to the Lannisters. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/476 "2016-06-14T19:04:07Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Oh sorry, you are right. It was given to Emmon Frey. > > But, the Freys are powerless next to the Lannisters. No problem. Pretty bad optics to raze a castle that you promised to someone to do your dirty work. Makes future alliances difficult. If it was still a Tully house I agree they might do it. Still an expensive.piece of strategic property to destroy though. Plus the Lannister power is waning. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/477 "2016-06-14T19:10:06Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Exactly. This is the actual quote: > > That’s SO much better than what we got. Thanks for posting that, it’s been soooo long since I read FFC which does have many moments of incredible brilliance despite all the complaints about its length and rambling plot lines. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/478 "2016-06-14T20:00:46Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Pretty bad optics to raze a castle that you promised to someone to do your dirty work. Makes future alliances difficult. Considering the people you promised the castle to can’t even take it over properly, I doubt it. Of course helping to orchestrate the Red Wedding may make it even more difficult to make future alliances, but in the might makes right world that doesn’t particularly matter. > [@](#): > > Plus the Lannister power is waning. The Frey’s entire position is owed to the Lannisters. If the Lannisters fall, there is no particular reason that the Tyrells will care about the bargains struck between the Freys, the Boltons, and the Lannisters. Therefore the Freys are tied even more to the Lannisters. Especially in a world where the Lord Paramount can shift on a dime according to what the crown desires. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/479 "2016-06-20T00:13:55Z")
I am hoping very hard that they’ve casted a part for Wyman Manderly in this episode. They’ve mentioned the Manderleys a few times, and I am rooting for some sort of The North Remembers surprise so hard here. I would greatly prefer a The North Remembers surprise than a handy Knights of the Vale at the last minute. Maybe we’ll get both. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058/480 "2016-06-20T00:57:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I am hoping very hard that they’ve casted a part for Wyman Manderly in this episode. They’ve mentioned the Manderleys a few times, and I am rooting for some sort of The North Remembers surprise so hard here. > > I would greatly prefer a The North Remembers surprise than a handy Knights of the Vale at the last minute. Maybe we’ll get both. I don’t think they did, though apparently whichever son died did appear at the RW. Rumors are that another character takes his place, which if true I don’t like as much but it’s okay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-season-6-open-show-book-discussion-thread-spoilers/753058.md?page=25)