# Game of Thrones, The Wolf and the Lion, 5/15/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039 "2011-05-15T23:59:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/81 "2011-05-17T05:15:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I wonder that too, since I thought they were Jaime said, “Take him alive. Kill his men” ,before the fight started. > > You’d think Jaime needs a hostage to get his brother back. Instead he just tells Ned he wants him back and then leaves. Doesn’t even issue a proper threat or an ultimatum. Actually I think Jaime said that after Ned said, kill me and your brother is dead or something to that effect, which Jaime then said that quote. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/82 "2011-05-17T05:36:44Z")
Yes, Ned did say that. Jaime’s original intent might or might not have been to kill Ned, and Ned’s comment might have changed his mind. But if “take him” didn’t mean either kill him or grab him and take him somewhere, what _did_ it mean? ---
**Author:** ![Premislaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f0a364/32.png) [@Premislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Premislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/83 "2011-05-17T08:20:28Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > They started really high and have gotten better every single episode. Ratings even went up the night we killed Osama when the president was on talking about it. Decent, not great. Worse than what Boardwalk Empire averaged (IIRC) and worse than recent True Blood (but better than True Blood first season) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/84 "2011-05-17T11:42:49Z")
My vote for please continuing the prior episode summary. I haven’t read the books, and there are too many characters for me to keep straight. Thanks for the summary, which helps. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/85 "2011-05-17T12:12:02Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > Something that I don’t really get: Why is everyone concerned with Dany’s baby? Son or not, it’s Viserys who’s the contestant for the crown, and it’s because of that the Dothraki took Dany to wife. I know the Targaryens often wedded brother to sister, but this isn’t the case, so…what hold does any kid of Dany’s have for the throne unless Viserys is dead? Why aren’t they worried more about VISERYS? (P.S. I _have_ read the books; didn’t get it there, either) In show, someone said “Drogo won’t attack until his son is born”, but they didn’t make it clear why. Maybe he wants more out of the deal - going to war just to get a wife seems like insufficient reason, so maybe he has plans to make sure his son is the eventual ruler. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/86 "2011-05-17T12:44:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > In show, someone said “Drogo won’t attack until his son is born”, but they didn’t make it clear why. Maybe he wants more out of the deal - going to war just to get a wife seems like insufficient reason, so maybe he has plans to make sure his son is the eventual ruler. Well, they also said (paraphrasing) that “savages have their savage ways, and Drogo won’t attack until his son is born”. So, why won’t he attack? Savages being all savage-y. I assume there’s an unmentioned prophecy somewhere. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/87 "2011-05-17T12:53:33Z")
Or he just wants to make sure that he has an heir before he risks his life on an ocean crossing and all-out war. Anything could happen with a pregnancy…once the baby’s born, you have a much better chance of it surviving. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/88 "2011-05-17T13:08:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Or he just wants to make sure that he has an heir before he risks his life on an ocean crossing and all-out war. Anything could happen with a pregnancy…once the baby’s born, you have a much better chance of it surviving. Savages! Anyway, while that’s true I don’t see him leaving his wife and child behind while crossing the ocean. They’re nomads - they may not bring the wife and kids to the battlefield (“Look kids. See the plight of the common infantryman on the modern horse-dominated battlefield?”), they do bring them along in general. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/89 "2011-05-17T17:58:22Z")
Forgot to mention: some nice early shots of the Red Keep at King’s Landing. Much better graphics than the long view of the Eyrie. Loved seeing Arya chasing the cat, too. Agreed as to Sean Bean - he really is quite good in this role. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/90 "2011-05-17T23:23:16Z")
Love Sean Bean. When I first heard he was casted was the moment where the show shifted from “will probably watch on DVD if it survives its’ first season” to “clear my damned calendar.” Loved the episode - the chat between Cersei and Robert was great and defined their relationship far more clearly and unequivocally than any amount of exposition ever could. Robert and Ned also had a great moment with the, ah, armour-stretcher and again in the fight in the council. I’ve only seen an actor portray a character on the very brink of violent anger better than Robert once, and that was Kevin McKidd in Rome. The shave & bj scene between Renly and Loras, on the other hand, confused the hell out of me. I mean, I got the implication that Loras was a bit on the sly side, but Renly? That one came out of the blue. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/91 "2011-05-17T23:39:47Z")
My take on the worrying about Dany was simply that Drogo wouldn’t consider Viserys’s gift to him complete until an heir is born, and Ser Jorah would have known that and passed it on to the Small Council and Robert. (If they, themselves, didn’t realize the Dothraki would think that way.) Viserys is no threat without the Khal’s army at his back, so, they worry about Drogo’s actions, and thus whether Dany has given him a son. On the note of casting…I like Masie Williams as Arya, but I have a hard time buying that people could mistake her for a boy just because she was wearing pants. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/92 "2011-05-18T00:35:51Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > You two are quite mistaken, the swords used in the episode were neither exceptionally big nor were medieval twohanders (see here a replica of a [Medieval Danish Two Handed War Sword](http://www.albion-europe.com/swords/swords-by-productline/nextgeneration/twohanded/model.aspx?model=56)) so heavy and cumbersome that they couldn’t be used with some sophistication (see the writings of [Achille Marozzo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achille_Marozzo) or the [Goliath manua](http://thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm)l among others); sure, it wasn’t possible to apply all the techniques developed for the long swords, like [The Liechtenauer](http://www.albion-europe.com/swords/swords-by-productline/maestro/model.aspx?model=25), (see one of [Talhoffer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Talhoffer)’s famous [manuals](http://thearma.org/Manuals/talhoffer.htm)) but it wasn’t whack-whack-whack, oh my dear spindly arms, so used to only grab the remote, I’m winded. The sword used by the Mountain in this episode is 64" long. Quite a bit bigger than both the swords you linked to. Are they not full size? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/93 "2011-05-18T01:57:38Z")
I thought the episode was excellent. It was tremendously better at advancing the story than most episodes have been so far, and yet still was strong on explication, foreshadowing, and characterization. I was impressed. And another child of Robert’s that takes after Robert. And the soles of my feet were prickling when Tyrion was looking over the edge of the sky cell. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/94 "2011-05-18T02:12:32Z")
I wish the sky cell had been slanted towards the edge like its supposed to though, that just adds a whole new level of fear. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/95 "2011-05-18T02:24:28Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > On the note of casting…I like Masie Williams as Arya, but I have a hard time buying that people could mistake her for a boy just because she was wearing pants. I think it has more to do with Westeros culture. Girls don’t dress like that and get dirty like that, so she must not be a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/96 "2011-05-18T02:32:44Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I wish the sky cell had been slanted towards the edge like its supposed to be. Please, for the purposes of these episode threads, > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Pretend the books don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![With\_Rye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@With\_Rye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/With_Rye)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/97 "2011-05-18T05:17:03Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I wish the sky cell had been slanted towards the edge like its supposed to though, that just adds a whole new level of fear. They tried to convey this by showing a bit of water flowing down the middle of the cell. I guess the slight angle would be hard to show otherwise on the screen. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/98 "2011-05-18T05:49:23Z")
Ever slept in a tent on slightly uneven ground? Even a pretty minor slope is quite uncomfortable. Put a massive drop at the end and it would be awful. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/99 "2011-05-18T10:16:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The sword used by the Mountain in this episode is 64" long. Quite a bit bigger than both the swords you linked to. Are they not full size? A twohander or later Bidenhänder that was still useful in combat could reach an overall length exceeding 67" (Pier Gerlofs Donia’s sword, on display in a museum in Leeuwarden, is quite a bit longer, though .. ha) ; the “operating area” of a strong and well-trained man with such a weapon is a serious advantage, especially against multiple enemies or polearms\*, but his defense would have been compromised. If I fought with such a weapon, I’d prefer to attack relentlessly and make sure that I don’t let a shield bearing opponent to close on me. I’ve seen European martial arts experts handle twohanders and Bidenhänder well, and their popularity was surely not just due to their impressive appearance. * * * - A variation of a twohanded sword, the “Flamberge” was primarily used to hew alleys into the formations of pikemen. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039/100 "2011-05-18T10:54:52Z")
Just wanted to add: the Hound’s idea to stay close to the Mountain was the right thing to do, but a medieval knight would have used the guard of his sword to punish him for getting his unprotected head within reach; he might also have simply gripped the other man’s sword – well, both might have done so in such a situation (you can see this happen on old engravings and it comes “naturally” to the more experienced fighters nowadays who work to recreate medieval martial arts). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-the-wolf-and-the-lion-5-15-11/582039.md?page=6)