# Game of Thrones: Was the big reveal botched? (Open Spoilers!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 8, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788 "2017-07-08T20:33:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/41 "2017-07-13T13:50:44Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > Aerys II had one daughter and two sons (legitimately); his younger son, Viserys, [died](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3HXo1uircE) in season one (all scenes with him [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQBlrJ3kGxU)). > > The war was over at that point: Rhaegar and Aerys II were dead and Robert sat on the Iron Throne. > > Everything about the Tower of Joy is strange. > > Somehow, Ned learns the location of his long lost sister Lyanna. > > The most likely source is Ashara Dayne, sister of Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who is going to be killed at the Tower of Joy. Other likely candidates are Varys who gave this information to save his position (and life) or Barristan who might have known Rhaegar’s secret - or the whereabouts of his fellow Kingsguard. > > But there’s a problem: book-Ned went to Storm’s End from King’s Landing to lift the siege, which is strange if he had already known where his sister was hidden: is it really plausible that he would have decided to take such a detour, or that Robert would have ordered it or not ridden with Ned to free his beloved Lyanna? > > Isn’t it more likely that Ned learned her whereabouts either from someone at Storm’s End or during that time by message, _because_ Robert was not present to accompany Ned to the Tower of Joy? > > In that case, Varys is one of the most likely (but anonymous) sources of information, followed by Ashara - though lets not forget that she had an equally strong reason to keep quiet. > > In any case, Ned rode to the Tower only with northern i.e. trusted companions. It’s quite possible that he already knew to expect trouble of the kind that needed to be dealt with quietly. > > At the Tower of Joy they met three (in the show two) Kingsguard, and they fought to the death. > > Why? > > Rhaegar is dead, the Targaryen rule has ended, Robert is the new king. Lyanna is in no immediate danger from her loving brother or his trusted companions. Robert isn’t present, so the child’s life is not necessarily in danger either, at least not yet. Getting killed - or kill the mother’s most powerful kin and best friend of the new king won’t improve the child’s safety either … > > So, why fight? Why not talk, explain the situation, try to find a peaceful solution that is likely to improve the odds of the survival for the boy in the tower? > > Maybe the Guards were simply suicidal, but that doesn’t explain the short exchange between Arthur and Ned: > > ``` > Arthur Dayne: "And now, it begins." > Ned Stark: "No. Now it ends." > > ``` > > What is supposed to begin here, Arthur Dayne? > > Maybe Preston is onto something with his explanation, that the death of the guards is a willing sacrifice in a blood ritual - after all, many Targaryen were firm believers of prophecy, and Rhaegar’s motives for his incredibly stupid and totally uncharacteristic actions wrt. Lyanna are still unknown to us. > > Of course, the show will likely ignore the deeper layers of the story; it has smoothed out most of the contradictions and oddities presented in the books, and the characters are far less complex. Robert was injured on the Trident and wasn’t well enough to travel. I’m not sure why Ned had to have been tipped off. He was looking for her, you ask around, investigate, etc. Three kingsguard and noblemen would be noticed. Makes sense that Ned goes to Storm’s End first. He’s finishing out the war. That’s more important than finding his sister. If it wasn’t, why’d he fight in any battles instead of just going straight for Lyanna the whole time? “Not it begins” is just saying “now we’re going to fight” no? I assumed they didn’t negotiate it because Rhaegar gave them instructions to let nobody near Lyanna/the baby. We know they follow orders no matter what. Rhaegar would trust the child to the kingsguard over Ned for sure. I think Rhaegar’s motivations for bedding Lyanna are techinically unknown, but pretty well established. He was into prophecy and knew thought that the Prince that was Promised would come from his line. He also thought that “the dragon must have three heads.” His wife had very difficult pregnancies and couldn’t bear a third child. Therefor he needed another wife. Why Lyanna specifically? That’s a bit more of a mystery. It could be because of “the song of ice and fire” but he thinks his son Aegon is related to that, and Aegon was a product of a Targaryen and a Dornish woman, so it doesn’t really fit that he’d need a Stark. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/42 "2017-07-13T14:01:03Z")
How would a Dornish woman satisfy the “Ice” need? At least, what little we saw of Dorne looks like a hot, sandy desert. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/43 "2017-07-13T15:02:16Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Robert was injured on the Trident and wasn’t well enough to travel. I’m not sure why Ned had to have been tipped off. He was looking for her, you ask around, investigate, etc. Three kingsguard and noblemen would be noticed. > > Makes sense that Ned goes to Storm’s End first. He’s finishing out the war. That’s more important than finding his sister. If it wasn’t, why’d he fight in any battles instead of just going straight for Lyanna the whole time? > > “Not it begins” is just saying “now we’re going to fight” no? I assumed they didn’t negotiate it because Rhaegar gave them instructions to let nobody near Lyanna/the baby. We know they follow orders no matter what. Rhaegar would trust the child to the kingsguard over Ned for sure. > > I think Rhaegar’s motivations for bedding Lyanna are techinically unknown, but pretty well established. He was into prophecy and knew thought that the Prince that was Promised would come from his line. He also thought that “the dragon must have three heads.” His wife had very difficult pregnancies and couldn’t bear a third child. Therefor he needed another wife. Why Lyanna specifically? That’s a bit more of a mystery. It could be because of “the song of ice and fire” but he thinks his son Aegon is related to that, and Aegon was a product of a Targaryen and a Dornish woman, so it doesn’t really fit that he’d need a Stark. Think about Ned’s issues here: the whole war started when his sister Lyanna was “abducted” by Rhaegar, his father and older brother were killed in a malicious and derisive fashion in King’s Landing when they raised a hue and cry about the Crown Prince’s crime, and Ned’s life changed drastically since he had to take on all the responsibilities (including marrying his brother’s betrothed) of his new political position while also leading a war. Then he came to know the location of his sister … and went to Storm’s End instead, even though this was just a side show after the war was practically over - but one that might have tied him up for quite some time, while he couldn’t know what was happening to the one beloved person that had to be on his mind the most at that point? Even if honorable Ned felt such a strong obligation to end the siege at Storm’s End that he needed to do this, why not sent his most trusted companions (who proved themselves in the most dire circumstances) to the Tower of Joy to rescue his sister instead of doing _nothing at all_? I don’t buy it. And speaking of Ned’s well known honour … Did the Kingsguard, who all knew Ned, have any reason to assume that he was about to harm his sister or kill _her_ son? No. And even if they had their doubts - talking to Ned first was always the better option. But they did not do that. Instead, they chose to fight - a choice that was not likely to improve the infant’s longterm chances of survival one bit, quite to the contrary. If there was one person on the winning side who’d try to keep the boy safe, and who’d have the resources and - if necessary - the clout to do so, it was Ned. Choosing to force Ned into a fight was a no-win scenario for the guards, if the boy’s safety was their prime objective. Which brings us back to other motives, most prominently: the prophecy. We know that young Rhaegar was intrigued by the idea that he was the promised prince. He changed his mind after he had read some scrolls that convinced him, the … well … nerd, to become a warrior instead. The he believed that his son Aegon was the promised one because of the comet in the sky at his birth. But, as you mentioned, if “his is the song of fire and ice”, the son of a Targaryen and a Martell does not necessarily fit the description, although, the House sigil of Martell fits into … but let’s not get too deep into that discussion. If Rhaegar thought that he needed an ice princess to fulfill the prophecy, a Stark might have looked like a better choice. And the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy might have agreed with this interpretation since they - or their Houses - were all associated with … ancient knowledge and the practice of magic. Which brings me to Arthur Dayne and the prophecy concerning Azor Ahai, who - as Melisandre mentioned - is identical with the Prince that was Promised: “When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt.” Arthur Dayne, the Morning Star, might indeed have thought that the prophecy mentions him specifically, and that his blood was needed to bring the prophecy about. I am not saying that he was right - just that he might have believed it. I’d very much prefer it if all those prophecies relied on self-fulfillment (there is some indication that Cersei went into this trap) and were not a sign of a deterministic universe. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/44 "2017-07-13T15:17:22Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > How would a Dornish woman satisfy the “Ice” need? At least, what little we saw of Dorne looks like a hot, sandy desert. Plenty of those ancient prophecies are vague enough to point to … everyone who wants to be their subject, or who can be made to believe to be the subject, like Stannis (A Storm of Swords, Chapter 78, Samwell V.): > [@](#): > > _Aemon_: It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised? > > _Melisandre_: He stands before you, though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes. Well, in the books, Stannis is still alive, so … but on the show, he’s toast. Of course, he is not the only candidate (A Feast for Crows, Chapter 35, Samwell IV): > [@](#): > > _Aemon_ (to Sam): > What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it. So, Daenerys also fits the prophecy. And Jon. And likely thousands of other people who just don’t have any power and never even heard of such a prophecy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/45 "2017-07-13T15:44:50Z")
Not reading the thread, but wanted to thank the OP for open spoilers _in the thread title_. Thanks; really appreciate that effort. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/46 "2017-07-13T18:01:15Z")
Maybe he should go down to the quarry and throw it down there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/47 "2017-07-13T22:25:41Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > And speaking of Ned’s well known honour … Did the Kingsguard, who all knew Ned, have any reason to assume that he was about to harm his sister or kill _her_ son? > > No. And even if they had their doubts - talking to Ned first was always the better option. But they did not do that. Instead, they chose to fight - a choice that was not likely to improve the infant’s longterm chances of survival one bit, quite to the contrary. Part of the myth of the Kingsguard is that they’re completely dedicated to honor, to obeying their king/prince, and who take their oaths seriously. So it’s plausible that if Rhaegar had told them to stay with/protect the baby no matter what, that they might’ve felt honor bound to fight for it even against some who probably would not harm the child. Or, perhaps, they had planned to restore the Targaryen dynasty, and the baby would become the new king. In that case, giving the baby up to one of the men behind the rebellion would obviously kill that plan. > [@Critical1](#): > > Another clue left out of that clip is the scene with Tyrion when Jon realizes that Tyrion is the only one who told him the truth about the watch, all those people who supposedly love him raised him to join the worlds armpit of social outcasts. He is hurt and baffled as to why Tyrion told him the truth when none of them would. Ned knew Robert would kill him if he ever found out so he sent him to the wall to protect him. I don’t think that’s it at all. Only Ned knows about the baby. He didn’t even tell Catelyn, who could’ve made Jon’s life a lot easier if she wasn’t an orphan-hating bitch, so it’s unlikely Ned told anyone else. The Night’s Watch is still considered honorable/important enough that a Stark is always on the wall. Ned’s brother was not a social outcast or anything of the sort, but went to serve on the wall. They probably paint a much rosier picture in Winterfell of the Night’s Watch than the more realistic view Tyrion would have. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/48 "2017-07-13T22:28:05Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > And speaking of Ned’s well known honour … Did the Kingsguard, who all knew Ned, have any reason to assume that he was about to harm his sister or kill _her_ son? Ned’s honor wasn’t well known and he wasn’t well known to the Kingsguard at that time. Ned was 18 (I think) at the time and a second son. Not terribly important. It’s possible or maybe probably he had never met any of those Kingsguard before the Tower of Joy. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/49 "2017-07-13T23:09:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Not reading the thread, but wanted to thank the OP for open spoilers _in the thread title_. > > Thanks; really appreciate that effort. :rolleyes: What are you talking about? (I guess I’ll never know, since you’re “not reading the thread”.) ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/50 "2017-07-14T11:00:20Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Ned’s honor wasn’t well known and he wasn’t well known to the Kingsguard at that time. Ned was 18 (I think) at the time and a second son. Not terribly important. It’s possible or maybe probably he had never met any of those Kingsguard before the Tower of Joy. Robert was only a year older than Ned, and both had become prominent rebellion leaders; Stark’s political and military contributions to the downfall of their king should have been known to members of the Kingsguard. Whether they had learned by then that Ned had been the only rebellion leader to show open disgust with Tywin’s butchery in King’s Landing - and of the royal family in particular - is unknown, but you seem to dismiss the presence of a character witness in closest vicinity to those guards: Lyanna Stark. And both, Ned’s leadership in the rebellion and his relationship to Lyanna, gave them motivation to learn as much about him as they could since it was likely that they’d face him eventually if they continued to stay\* near the Stark girl. And even if we assume that Arthur was too arrogant to be interested and Oswell too inexperienced, Gerold Hightower was neither. No, I don’t consider ignorance a likely reason for the Kingsguards’ behaviour. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Part of the myth of the Kingsguard is that they’re completely dedicated to honor, to obeying their king/prince, and who take their oaths seriously. So it’s plausible that if Rhaegar had told them to stay with/protect the baby no matter what, that they might’ve felt honor bound to fight for it even against some who probably would not harm the child. > > Or, perhaps, they had planned to restore the Targaryen dynasty, and the baby would become the new king. In that case, giving the baby up to one of the men behind the rebellion would obviously kill that plan. Dedicated? No doubt. Arthur and Oswell might have even been involved in Lyanna’s disappearance; regardless, they were closely associated with Rhaegar. And Gerold Hightower was fiercely loyal to his oath: “to protect the king and the royal family with his life, to obey his commands, and to keep his secrets”. Those men might have believed that a fight to the death was the only option left. They were fighters, after all. Their side had lost, their king and prince were dead, and everything they might have believed in was in ruins. They might have felt honour-bound to fight to their deaths, or simply desperate. And yet, they had ample time to come to grips with the situation and consider their options. If their first priority was the protection of royal family, trying to talk to Ned first was without doubt the better option. If they considered Lyanna part of the royal family now, then so was Ned, which should have given them pause. If only the baby was royal family in their mind, Ned was still the only surviving brother of the infant’s mother. Was Lyanna not expected to react adversely if they killed him? Ha, Lyanna … her role in the whole matter is the greatest mystery to me. Was she a frivolous Juliet to a reckless Romeo as her age and their behaviour suggests? Was she really taken and just another victim of Rhaegar’s obscure motives - or was she his accomplice from the start or later? Did she know what had happened to her family and the whole of Westeros? Was she horrified, resigned or unaffected? I doubt that she was as innocent in the matter as Ned claimed her to be and Robert wanted to believe, but we don’t know yet. Anyway, back to the Kingsguard: Keeping a secret might be a better explanation for their course of action … which leads us to the question: What secret? And was Lyanna’s death then truly the result of a complicated child birth? Again, we don’t know. But all oddities considered, the official version never made sense to me. * * * - Though, they might have intended to leave the Tower of Joy. Or Lyanna. Or both. We don’t know their orders and motives in the necessary detail to speculate about their plans. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/51 "2017-07-14T13:33:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Not reading the thread, but wanted to thank the OP for open spoilers _in the thread title_. > > Thanks; really appreciate that effort. :rolleyes: “Open Spoilers”? About the fact that there’s a shocking end-of-season reveal? Like has happened in almost every end-of-season show since the first? What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/52 "2017-07-14T13:52:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > “Open Spoilers”? About the fact that there’s a shocking end-of-season reveal? Like has happened in almost every end-of-season show since the first? What are you talking about? I thought he was joking. You know, complaining about open spoilers in the title, when the OP had simply used the words “open spoilers” … ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/53 "2017-07-14T20:02:19Z")
I guess the fact that there’s a big reveal at some point in the series is a spoiler in and of itself? Sorry, I didn’t realize, and I apologize to everybody whose viewing experience has been totally ruined by having this information. Also, in case you didn’t know, somebody gets killed in one of the episodes. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/54 "2017-07-14T20:26:21Z")
Also, that other TV show you watch? There’s a big surprise coming at the end of the season. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788/55 "2017-08-28T22:20:23Z")
Okay then. I think we can consider this discussion officially moot. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-was-the-big-reveal-botched-open-spoilers/790788.md?page=2)