# Game of Thrones, Winter is Coming, 4/17/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781 "2011-04-18T01:17:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/201 "2011-04-20T17:03:01Z")
I think it was “we were meant to rule together”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/202 "2011-04-20T20:42:56Z")
Finally got to watch it. Wow… so well done. It was very weird, as a complete spoiler-phobe to go into a show knowing everything that’s coming. 🙂 But I got to watch it with my wife, a complete spoiler-hound who’s never read the books, so I got to watch through her eyes and also fill her in on all she wanted to know that wasn’t shown. > [@Enderw24](#): > > My one complaint about the pilot was the intro piece beyond the Wall. Yes, it was the intro to the books, but it’s completely out of place here. Agreed. After that scene my wife said, “this isn’t grabbing me. I’m looking for fantasy, and so far I see horror.” As a fan of the books, I appreciated the scene, but maybe it would have been better to open with the Starks at Winterfell, then show the Beyond the Wall scene as a flashback during Wil’s rambling and execution. Casting is pretty perfect, and the direction and art direction are stunning. Amazing what a skilled actor can do with every muscle in their face: specifically Sean Bean’s reaction to “you got fat!” perfect! The scene with Robert at Lyanna’s grave was unexpectedly touching. Their relationship is something I kind of glossed over when I read AGoT. Cat making Bran promise not to climb was heart-wrenching, knowing what was coming. Some of the exposition was a little clunky here and there, (Jaime: “As your brother..” my wife: “thank you!”) but there’s a lot to relay, so I forgive it. Can’t wait for more… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/203 "2011-04-20T20:46:49Z")
I just don’t know if, emotionally, I can get through the series. Am I the only one hinked out a bit by watching characters who I know are going to have really nasty things happen to them? :eek: -XT ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/204 "2011-04-20T20:51:33Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > The scene with Robert at Lyanna’s grave was unexpectedly touching. Their relationship is something I kind of glossed over when I read AGoT. That’s probably because they didn’t have a relationship. Robert’s just obsessed with her. It’s pretty creepy actually. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/205 "2011-04-20T20:58:40Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > That’s probably because they didn’t have a relationship. Robert’s just obsessed with her. It’s pretty creepy actually. [spoiler]I thought they DID have a relationship in the book. Wasn’t Robert planning to marry her, but she was taken away by the former King and then killed when he and Ned tried to take her back from some of the Kings special knights? Also, I seem to recall she was raped by the King or one of those knights as well…I misremember which. I don’t think it was supposed to be creepy at all…Robert loved her and that’s who his queen WOULD have been, instead of the bitch he actually married, which is supposed to show the contrast between how things should have been and how they actually worked out.[/spoiler] -XT ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/206 "2011-04-20T21:18:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [spoiler]I thought they DID have a relationship in the book. Wasn’t Robert planning to marry her, but she was taken away by the former King and then killed when he and Ned tried to take her back from some of the Kings special knights? Also, I seem to recall she was raped by the King or one of those knights as well…I misremember which. > > I don’t think it was supposed to be creepy at all…Robert loved her and that’s who his queen WOULD have been, instead of the bitch he actually married, which is supposed to show the contrast between how things should have been and how they actually worked out.[/spoiler] > > -XT It was an arranged marriage, Lyana didn’t like Robert at all. She wasn’t raped by anybody, she ran away with her true love Rhaegar Targaryen and started the war. You only get Robert and Eddards POV of what happened but if you pay attention the truth isn’t hard to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/207 "2011-04-20T21:20:07Z")
I didn’t get any of that (or I’ve totally forgotten it all)…maybe I need to go back and reread the story after all. -XT ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/208 "2011-04-20T21:26:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I didn’t get any of that (or I’ve totally forgotten it all)…maybe I need to go back and reread the story after all. > > -XT It started to click when i noticed everyone had a really good opinion of Rhaegar except Robert. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/209 "2011-04-20T21:32:53Z")
You should spoiler that comment I think. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/210 "2011-04-20T21:32:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I just don’t know if, emotionally, I can get through the series. Am I the only one hinked out a bit by watching characters who I know are going to have really nasty things happen to them? :eek: I know! After the scene where Jaime threw Bran out the window, my husband said to me “I hope that fucker has something really miserable happen to him” and I said “Pretty much everyone has something really miserable happen to them in this show.” And I’ve been thinking about that today - what character doesn’t have something horrible happen? Cersei is up there as far as least damaged, and still, her kid was killed. But nothing directly just yet, at least not until the very end of the most recent book. Who else? Some of the littlest kids (Tommen, Rickon) don’t have too much - but still some misery (both have a lot of deaths around them, though nothing directly happens to them). Littlefinger is doing OK. But just about everyone else is screwed in one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/211 "2011-04-21T00:41:06Z")
Re: Lyanna and Robert Although we definitely get hints that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar of her own free will, I don’t think it’s fair to say that she didn’t like Robert. Nothing in the series implies that she actively disliked him. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/212 "2011-04-21T00:47:50Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Re: Lyanna and Robert > > Although we definitely get hints that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar of her own free will, I don’t think it’s fair to say that she didn’t like Robert. Nothing in the series implies that she actively disliked him. Yes there is, during one of Neds flashbacks i believe. I don’t remember exactly what it was but it was sort of a “come on, you know this wouldn’t end well”. Robert didn’t turn into a heavy drinker and a womanizer after he became king, he always was one, the only thing that changed was his waistline. Edit: found the exact quote: “love is sweet dearest Ned, but it cannot change a mans nature”, so maybe she didn’t really dislike him so much as knew what he would do once they married. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/213 "2011-04-21T01:00:03Z")
**DigitalC** Yeah, I don’t think that quote means that she didn’t like him. More like she knew what she was getting into. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/214 "2011-04-21T01:32:35Z")
To continue this particular line of spoilers; [spoiler] I think the point being made with that quote was that while Robert, in hindsight, believes that with Lyanna he would have been a great husband with no sleeping around, like as not he’d be just as bad with her as he was with Cersei. As much as being in an entirely loveless, political marriage was where Robert laid the blame for all his dalliances and basically every problem he had, it’s not inconcievable that he’d do the same with Lyanna. More to the point, by and large I think the overall idea is that really, Robert didn’t actually know Lyanna all that well. After she died, he’s idealised her into this perfect figure, but there’s a lot of points (mostly at the very, very beginning) where Robert says Lyanna would do this or want that and Ned disagrees. Not that we readers know much about Lyanna ourselves beyond the Rhaegar and Knight of the Laughing Tree speculation. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/215 "2011-04-21T02:09:32Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > To continue this particular line of spoilers; I think the point being made with that quote was that while Robert, in hindsight, believes that with Lyanna he would have been a great husband with no sleeping around, like as not he’d be just as bad with her as he was with Cersei. As much as being in an entirely loveless, political marriage was where Robert laid the blame for all his dalliances and basically every problem he had, it’s not inconcievable that he’d do the same with Lyanna. Ahem: True enough, but Lyanna was not fucking her brother (either one of them), and and would not have born their “heirs” to the throne. She was far more pragmatic than Cersei. You certainly can’t blame all of Robert’s problems on Cersei, but she’s subject to blame for most of the _kingdom_’s problems. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/216 "2011-04-21T02:10:56Z")
Not going to spoil this one…merely say that I agree with Frank. That’s how I saw it as well. -XT ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/217 "2011-04-21T13:55:05Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Ahem: > > True enough, but Lyanna was not fucking her brother (either one of them), and and would not have born their “heirs” to the throne. She was far more pragmatic than Cersei. You certainly can’t blame all of Robert’s problems on Cersei, but she’s subject to blame for most of the _kingdom_’s problems. Lyanna wasn’t going to put up with a cheating Robert just so she could play at being queen either. And if we wanna talk good of the kingdom she directly started the war that lead to the current situation. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/218 "2011-04-21T14:12:35Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Lyanna wasn’t going to put up with a cheating Robert just so she could play at being queen either. And if we wanna talk good of the kingdom she directly started the war that lead to the current situation. [spoiler] She’s responsible for Aerys’ actions? Last I checked she didn’t murder her brother and father. Yeah, what she did was reckless, but she’s not responsible for the actions of anyone else. If Aerys didn’t muder Brandon and Ned’s father (what was his name? I’m thinking Rickon) when they went to King’s Landing, there wouldn’t be a war. R+L would have come back from their honeymoon and Dorne would’ve been pissed, but shut the hell up. Everything hinges on Aerys being fucking crazy, not on Lyana being 16 and in love.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/219 "2011-04-21T14:19:56Z")
\:p ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781/220 "2011-04-21T15:04:51Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > \:p Evol!! 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winter-is-coming-4-17-11/578781.md?page=12)