# Game of Thrones "Winterfell" 8.01 4/14/19 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 14, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542 "2019-04-14T18:41:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/181 "2019-04-16T18:24:44Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Well, the way I would look at it is that, if the undead were dead, they can become redead. “Kill the bastards, anyway.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/182 "2019-04-16T18:28:44Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > My bolding. I think the writers absolutely do intend to show exactly what you’ve outlined here: that Daenerys is being presented as an initially-sympathetic character who has become uppity, and that this tells us the future of this character (unhappy), as much as the ‘Sansa is the smartest person I know’ line tells us the future of Sansa (happy). > > It’s all very heavy-handed. I agree with that. At this point the show writers have completely given up on any subtlety whatsoever. So the scene with Sam and Dany and then Sam and Jon appear to quite obviously to indicate that the show is going to turn on Dany and her autocratic ways. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/183 "2019-04-16T18:36:13Z")
Yeah, I’m totally fine with Dany turning to be an antagonist of sorts. I think it fits with her character and her arc. It’s just that the speed and deftness of how (and if) it happens might not be the best. I felt similarly to Stannis. I can definitely see him burn his daughter. However, I don’t think the man that survived the siege of Storm’s End by eating dogs and shoe leather does that immediately after a setback. Last resort Stannis? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/184 "2019-04-16T18:42:45Z")
Maybe he just wanted the mug: [http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/number-1-dad-best-dad-mug-stannis-baratheon-daughter-killed-game-of-thrones.jpg](http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/number-1-dad-best-dad-mug-stannis-baratheon-daughter-killed-game-of-thrones.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/185 "2019-04-16T18:52:27Z")
HBO should sell a Stannis branded #1 dad mug. I’d buy one. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/186 "2019-04-16T18:59:11Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > What I still don’t understand is why the truth about Jon’s parentage should make any difference at all to anyone except Jon and possibly his previously believed to be siblings now known to be cousins. Surely one of the largest themes in the story was expressed by Varys to Ned once: power resides where men believe it resides. So Jon turns out not to be Ned’s bastard son at all but the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark; so what? Ooo, he’s the true heir to the throne – but for quite a while Viserys Targaryon was thought to be that, and that didn’t do him any good in the end, did it? > > For that matter, and I realize I could just look it up to pin down the timeframe, who died first, the Mad King or Rhaegar? Because Rhaegar was never crowned king, so surely either way Dany would have a strong claim to being the next one in succession as the Mad King’s daughter over the son of the uncrowned heir apparent. Or have I gotten my rules of succession twisted up? > > In any case, Dany’s real claim to the throne is that she has dragons and armies. Without those, her bloodline wouldn’t sway a single person in Westeros into supporting her, so why would Jon’s? It’s a big deal because many of their allies would demand Dany step aside and Jon be made the King which would ruin the alliance completely. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/187 "2019-04-16T19:34:31Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I’m pretty sure that between them they have _zero_ sets of male genitalia. “Cut root to stem” as Varys put it at one point. As were Theon Greyjoy and Grey Worm (and all the Unsullied). Eunuchs and castrati are common in history and literature but full penilectomies? Does G.R.R. Martin have … issues? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/188 "2019-04-16T19:49:49Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I wanna know what the hell that White Walker was doing just outside the Wall way back in Episode 1. Picking up one of Craster’s babies, maybe. > [@dasmoocher](#): > > Rewatching that reminded me that the White Walkers arranged the dead Wildlings and their body parts in some sort of symbolic pattern, similar to what was seen at the end of this episode. > > Any idea what is up with that? I haven’t rewatched any episodes and don’t recall if we’ve seen other instances of this. Those symbols and patterns are important to “the children” (?) who created white walkers as a weapon to use in their war against the First Men. > [@Colibri](#): > > We see the same symbols in the [cave paintings on Dragonstone](https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/blogs.dir/385/files/2017/08/Screen-Shot-2017-08-11-at-1.32.08-PM.jpg&c=sc&w=777&h=488) evidently made by the Children of the Forest. They are an indicator that the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest. We see the “child” (?) tell this to Bran in the tree just before the wights broke in and Hodor had to hold the door. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think people have a notion that the army of the dead is heading right for the wall but took 7 years to get there. That’s obviously not true. The army of the dead can’t move south until winter came. So they were wandering every which way around the area north of the wall, killing wildlings and adding to their army, waiting for the time to come to move south. They were waiting for a dragon. The undead couldn’t cross the wall because it’s warded by magic. (Uncle Benjen told this to Bran.) Bring down the wall, though, and you bring down the magic. They needed a dragon to bring down the wall, and as soon as they got one they headed out. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/189 "2019-04-16T20:21:27Z")
Here’s NPR’s funny take on who’s gonna die - no spoilers, but wildass guesses aplenty: ['Game Of Thrones' Predictions: Who Will Live? Who Will Die? : NPR](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/10/711063904/which-characters-will-lose-the-game-of-thrones-a-chronicle-of-many-deaths-foreto?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=popculturehappyhour) ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/190 "2019-04-16T20:26:28Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > They were waiting for a dragon. The undead couldn’t cross the wall because it’s warded by magic. (Uncle Benjen told this to Bran.) Bring down the wall, though, and you bring down the magic. They needed a dragon to bring down the wall, and as soon as they got one they headed out. Although there was the Wight at Castle Black. And the one they brought to King’s Landing. Maybe a human can bring one across but they can’t come across on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/191 "2019-04-16T20:27:07Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Those symbols and patterns are important to “the children” (?) who created white walkers as a weapon to use in their war against the First Men. > > We see the “child” (?) tell this to Bran in the tree just before the wights broke in and Hodor had to hold the door. The Dragonstone cave paintings also include[White](https://typeset-beta.imgix.net/elite-daily/2017/08/06215050/Clipboard27.jpg) [Walkers,](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d2a93f8bf95ec151b9740f7b7e73c671-c) suggesting that the Children created them. > [@clairobscur](#): > > There’s a third option : > > Women didn’t stop drinking wine when pregnant, back then. Abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy is a very recent concept. > [@msmith537](#): > > That’s true for Earth history. Westeros isn’t “Earth”. Right. It may be anachronistic for medieval England, but there’s no “back then” that applies to Westeros. It’s not like the writers have been scrupulous about period authenticity, even aside from the magical elements. However, the real reason the wine is significant is that the writers needed a shorthand way to indicate to Tyrion that Cersei might be pregnant. They decided on wine because it was something that would be noticed by modern audiences as being significant. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/192 "2019-04-16T20:40:53Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Although there was the Wight at Castle Black. The two Night’s Watchmen were found apparently dead Beyond the Wall and brought into Castle Black, but didn’t revive as wights until they were actually across the Wall and inside. (But they had not decomposed, so they were not “all dead.”) At Hardhome, the Night King animates the dead as wights with just a gesture, so the Walkers can do so at a distance. So maybe they were able to be brought across because they weren’t yet reanimated as wights. > [@](#): > > And the one they brought to King’s Landing. Maybe a human can bring one across but they can’t come across on their own. That one was brought to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea on a dragon, where it could be rowed around the end of the wall in a small boat without passing through it. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/193 "2019-04-16T20:57:23Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > What the hell happened to Jamie’s blonde hair I justified the change by deciding that he dyed it. He wanted to look less “Lannister-like” so that anyone his sister sent after him might have a slightly harder time finding him. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I saw an interview with Kit Harrington (aka Jon Snow) and he said his wife, Rose Leslie (who played Ygritte in GoT and was Jon Snow’s lover), guessed at all the possible endings she could think of and he said she did not guess what actually happens in the show. I think that at the end, \*nobody \*sits the Iron Throne, probably because it gets destroyed somewhere along the way. I think that the White Walkers are defeated in the South, and retreat again beyond the Wall, but the Seven Kingdoms are disunited, with various Kings, Queens, and Pretenders making their own preparations for the next round of the Game of Thrones. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/194 "2019-04-16T20:57:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The Dragonstone cave paintings also include[White](https://typeset-beta.imgix.net/elite-daily/2017/08/06215050/Clipboard27.jpg) [Walkers,](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d2a93f8bf95ec151b9740f7b7e73c671-c) suggesting that the Children created them. Agreed, but we have more than suggestion. The “child” explicitly tells Bran that the children created white walkers during their war against the first men. Then Bran used his magic eye to go watch them do it by tying a human to one of the red sap trees and stabbing him in the heart with dragon glass. (Plus, presumably, some kind of special children juju. I wouldn’t think just anyone could do this with just a victim, dragonglass and an old god face tree.) The cave painting evidence is corroboration, but mostly just flavor. We mainly know the children created white walkers because we were explicitly told this in an exposition dump on screen by one of the children, and then had the veracity of the claim confirmed by Bran’s vision. (I possibly have that backwards; the exposition may have been in response to Bran’s vision.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/195 "2019-04-16T21:09:56Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Agreed, but we have more than suggestion. I was just referring to the evidence of the cave paintings. However, reviewing the [cave scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoYwBMwle_k), Jon doesn’t conclude that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers, just that the Children fought together with the First Men against them. (And he uses this to urge Dany to fight together with him.) Jon hasn’t been reunited with Bran yet, so he doesn’t know the origin story. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/196 "2019-04-17T00:35:49Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I agree with that. At this point the show writers have completely given up on any subtlety whatsoever. So the scene with Sam and Dany and then Sam and Jon appear to quite obviously to indicate that the show is going to turn on Dany and her autocratic ways. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Yeah, I’m totally fine with Dany turning to be an antagonist of sorts. I think it fits with her character and her arc. It’s just that the speed and deftness of how (and if) it happens might not be the best. > > I felt similarly to Stannis. I can definitely see him burn his daughter. However, I don’t think the man that survived the siege of Storm’s End by eating dogs and shoe leather does that immediately after a setback. Last resort Stannis? Sure. Yes, the ‘Stannis burns his daughter’ development was not even _remotely_ well-justified. Time and again we see the writers trying to provide a Big Emotional Effect----but they (apparently) lack the skill to get to those big effects in a plausible or organic way. So it appears they want to provide another Big Emotional Effect in which a heartbroken Jon has to do some particular thing that will bring Dany down or take away her power or whatever it will be. All the characters involved are played by actors skilled enough to keep the audience from completely rebelling, but…I’m guessing that whatever the Big Emotional Effect concerning Dany turns out to be, it will be something of an eye-roller. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/197 "2019-04-17T01:12:48Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > The final scene underlines a concern of mine from the last season: Bran is way too overpowered a character. Potentially he knows everything, > . . . Well, but the Night King also has access to the Weirwood net. Bran is not so much overpowered as a worthy adversary. Without him there would be no chance at all. When he said he was waiting “for an old friend” I think he meant the Night King, not Jamie. (prediction: Night King turns out to be a double agent, and Bran is the only one who knows, because the North forgot.) > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > . . . > Mark my words, Yara Greyjoy is going to come sailing to the rescue with her (by then much bigger) fleet sometime this season. > . . . > Eh, that didn’t bother me. Just a bit of sisterly flattery, I thought. > . . > I doubt it, but could be! Stranger things have happened, and he _is_ a royal bastard of Robert’s, after all (perhaps the last one now living). Didn’t Yara and Theon just run off with the biggest fleet in the known world? I absolutely think Sansa is brilliant. Don’t confuse a learning curve with a failure to learn. She has built the loyalty and trust of everyone she encountered. She knew when to lie to the Lords of the Vale, and when and how to come clean. She knew when to call in Littlefinger’s chips, and exactly how to phrase it so he’d come. She learned every trick that Cersei, Tyrion and Littlefinger used, and she’s prepared both to counter every strategy and to use it against them. And IMHO Sophie Turner is doing an incredible job of making her come across competent, gracious, and regal. Gendry is no bastard. Ask yourself, why was it necessary for Cersei to mention her firstborn? Her “Little black-haired beauty.” I’m sure he did get sick, and that someone (Jamie? Tywin?) spirited him away. Remember she said they wouldn’t let her see him after he died? Because he didn’t. My money is on Jamie having been unable to bear the sight of a child that proved Cersei had had sex with Robert. Gendry is a full blooded Baratheon, and he is the third head of the dragon. Stark, Baratheon, and Targaryen are all represented if only they can work together to save humanity. All of which means there’s every chance that poor Arya could wind up the Queen, which is that LAST thing she wants. 😉 > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > . . . > Could be. Remember Bronn is all about being paid. Didn’t he tell Tyrion he’d kill a baby if the money was right? But he has a heart of gold, deep down, so I suspect he’ll come over to the Lannister Brothers’ side in the end. > . . . But Bronn has seen the wight. He knows his dream castle is no use to him if he’s afraid to leave and all the other people are ice zombies. He’s also seen what the dragons can do, so he knows Cersei’s is the losing team. Also, that’s what he’d say if _Tyrion_ asked him to do it. He doesn’t trust Cersei. He knows what it would take for Tyrion to make such a request, and that it would be best to act quickly if something had driven him that far. And, in the end, I think he likes Tyrion more than he admits. Bronn and Pod will stand by Tyrion until the end. Not sure what decision Pod would make if he had to choose between Brienne and Tyrion, but then I don’t think either of them would ever put him in that position. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/198 "2019-04-17T01:23:40Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Didn’t Yara and Theon just run off with the biggest fleet in the known world? No, how could they do that? [They were shown to have exactly three ships](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fB9ajpto-g) after Yara’s rescue. And Yara says “Euron can’t defend the Iron Islands, not if he is in King’s Landing with all of his men and his ships.” Theon either rescued Yara, and spirited her away by small boat where he had a few waiting ships, or they somehow managed to hijack three ships from the fleet. I think the first is more likely. Theon couldn’t possibly have had enough men to have taken over the entire fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/199 "2019-04-17T01:28:46Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > … Gendry is no bastard. Ask yourself, why was it necessary for Cersei to mention her firstborn? Her “Little black-haired beauty.” I’m sure he did get sick, and that someone (Jamie? Tywin?) spirited him away. Remember she said they wouldn’t let her see him after he died? Because he didn’t. My money is on Jamie having been unable to bear the sight of a child that proved Cersei had had sex with Robert. Gendry is a full blooded Baratheon, and he is the third head of the dragon. … How do you get this admittedly-interesting theory to fit with the “three children” prophecy Cersei received from Maggy the Frog? ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/200 "2019-04-17T01:36:05Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > Initially I thought, “Of course he is, he was doing blacksmith stuff and talking to Arya”. > > Then I had my doubts and looked it up. > > Then realised that Podrick isn’t Genry. Doh! FWIW when they showed him ride into town in the beginning I said, “Oh Pod is here”. It was only when they showed him working the forge I realized it was Gendry. Now I’m not sure if we saw Pod but he should be there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542.md?page=11)