# Game of Thrones "Winterfell" 8.01 4/14/19 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 14, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542 "2019-04-14T18:41:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/141 "2019-04-15T22:04:42Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far. Right. It didn’t seem like they were traveling long before encountering the slaughtered Wildlings. Also, Ghost brings in a severed hand belonging to two missing Night Watch, whose bodies were later recovered to re-animate inside Castle Black. It didn’t seem he went very far to get it. > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Did we see Podrick this episode? I assume he’s back in Winterfell. Yes, he was seen briefly a couple of times. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/142 "2019-04-15T22:07:48Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Here’s the opening scene on Youtube: > > > Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far. Yes, when they first enter the forest you see the wall. Then there are multiple cuts and you no longer see the wall. This could be days later as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/143 "2019-04-15T22:19:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > > [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > > Did we see Podrick this episode? I assume he’s back in Winterfell. > > Yes, he was seen briefly a couple of times. All of Bronn’s friends are in Winterfell, then. Jaime, Tyrion, and Podrick. Bronn’s probably headed there now with a crossbow, but I don’t think he’ll use it on any of them. He certainly can’t stay in King’s Landing if it’s true that Flynn and Headey despise each other and have it in their contracts that they’ll never share a scene together. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/144 "2019-04-15T22:39:10Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Nah, more like > > Yeah, king of da norf, goes down south, picks up some blone bint starts puttin on airs. Ridin the dragon that got my maeve, best goat in the north, like its an orse Oh, but you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just because some fiery tart threw a dragon at you. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/145 "2019-04-15T22:43:12Z")
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the series! ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/146 "2019-04-16T00:02:49Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I thought Arya’s line that Sansa is the smartest person she knows is completely unearned. In fact, I think Sansa as a smart, developed player of the game is unearned. Yes, I understand the story has progressed in such a way that that’s _supposed_ to be what we think, but it’s just weak writing. I agree completely; this is what annoys me about this show that, let’s face it, looks great and has top-notch casting, acting, and (usually) direction. And superb special effects, too, for the most part. But the “smartest person I know” line was utterly unearned. It is, however, a sign of the way the showrunners are going to end this thing: with Sansa doing very well, even if not as Iron Throne occupant, but only as consort to the Iron Throne occupant. One way or the other, Sansa is fully approved of by the writing staff (including GRRM?) > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Dany is a very flawed queen, and **I honestly don’t know if the writers understand this.** Maybe it’ll become a plot point, and maybe they’ll just gloss over it. I don’t expect them to handle this one well. > > She’s arrogant. She’s more concerned with being shown the proper respect and playing bullshit political games and have people treat her with reverance than she is about doing everything she can to fight for the living. We’ve seen that Jon is truly the leader they need - he has no ego, he doesn’t give a shit about his own position or power or glory, he is completely dedicated to fulfilling the role thrust upon him to defeat the Night King. Jon is the king the world needs, and Danerys is way too attached to southern games and meaningless political bullshit and having everyone show the proper deference for her royalty. Jon deposing/killing/whatever Danerys would be fully justified, in both a practical way, and in terms of the rules of royalty, if anyone even gives a shit about that anymore. I don’t think this is going to happen, but that’s the direction they should be going. … My bolding. I think the writers absolutely do intend to show exactly what you’ve outlined here: that Daenerys is being presented as an initially-sympathetic character who has become uppity, and that this tells us the future of this character (unhappy), as much as the ‘Sansa is the smartest person I know’ line tells us the future of Sansa (happy). It’s all very heavy-handed. That premiere really did look gorgeous, though. You can see why they’re doing only six episodes, given the likely cost of each—particularly if the episodes offer as much dragon “footage” as this one did. Those scenes are massively expensive to produce. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/147 "2019-04-16T00:11:14Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > He certainly can’t stay in King’s Landing if it’s true that Flynn and Headey despise each other and have it in their contracts that they’ll never share a scene together. Cersei would have sent him on that mission herself without that clause. I was actually surprised at the start of the scene when I thought Qyburn was summoning Bronn to meet with the Queen. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/148 "2019-04-16T03:45:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If you exclude the title sequence and the credits, this ep was about 54 min. That’s why I used the word “around” and not the word “exactly”. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/149 "2019-04-16T04:00:30Z")
The new intro is interesting. Especially the bands with the little gilded scenes on them. The first one seems pretty straightforward. The zombie dragon melts the wall as the army of the dead stand by. On the other side of the wall are what look like birds. “Crows”, I imagine. The second is an enigma. A lion has caught a fish. There are other fish nearby. A griffin shot with arrows is hanged in the middle. On the right is a helmed man with a dagger (who may be naked, flayed, or dead) holding a severed wolf’s head. The last shows a comet-like object on the left that looks kinda like an owl. Livestock or deer graze below. Three dragons fly nearby. Another dragon just right of center is very large, and is probably meant to stand as a single image. The first one doesn’t seem to hold much mystery. For the second, the lion with the fish might represent Jaime defeating the Blackfish, though that doesn’t seem like a very significant event. I guess that the dead griffin represents Tywin. The wolf’s head might be Ned Stark, Shaggydog, or some other dead Stark. The third seems pretty generic (dragons hunting livestock), except for the comet. The red comet from the first season? The dying Viserion? Something else? The lone dragon might represent “the winner of the game of thrones.” ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/150 "2019-04-16T04:23:33Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Here’s the opening scene on Youtube: > > > Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far. Rewatching that reminded me that the White Walkers arranged the dead Wildlings and their body parts in some sort of symbolic pattern, similar to what was seen at the end of this episode. Any idea what is up with that? I haven’t rewatched any episodes and don’t recall if we’ve seen other instances of this. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/151 "2019-04-16T04:27:45Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > The first one seems pretty straightforward. The zombie dragon melts the wall as the army of the dead stand by. On the other side of the wall are what look like birds. “Crows”, I imagine. Right. Crows signifying the fleeing Nights Watch. > [@](#): > > The second is an enigma. A lion has caught a fish. There are other fish nearby. A griffin shot with arrows is hanged in the middle. On the right is a helmed man with a dagger (who may be naked, flayed, or dead) holding a severed wolf’s head. That’s the Red Wedding. They are going backwards in time. That’s a Lannister lion on the left; the fish in its mouth is the sigil of House Tully. The central image is The Twins castle, where the wedding took place, with a dead direwolf, the Stark sigil hung in the middle. On the left is the Flayed Man, the sigil of the Boltons, holding a direwolf’s head. So it’s the victory of the Lannisters and the Boltons over the Starks and Tullys. > [@](#): > > The last shows a comet-like object on the left that looks kinda like an owl. Livestock or deer graze below. Three dragons fly nearby. Another dragon just right of center is very large, and is probably meant to stand as a single image. Further back in time, that’s the hatching of Danys dragons. The large dragon is Dany, the Mother of Dragons, and the other three are her children. The “deer” are the horses of the Dothraki. And the comet is the Red Comet that first appeared with the birth of the dragons and the start of the War of the Five Kings. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/152 "2019-04-16T04:33:35Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Rewatching that reminded me that the White Walkers arranged the dead Wildlings and their body parts in some sort of symbolic pattern, similar to what was seen at the end of this episode. > > Any idea what is up with that? I haven’t rewatched any episodes and don’t recall if we’ve seen other instances of this. We see the same symbols in the [cave paintings on Dragonstone](https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/blogs.dir/385/files/2017/08/Screen-Shot-2017-08-11-at-1.32.08-PM.jpg&c=sc&w=777&h=488) evidently made by the Children of the Forest. They are an indicator that the White Walkers were created by the Children of the Forest. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/153 "2019-04-16T04:55:18Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Right. Crows signifying the fleeing Nights Watch. > > That’s the Red Wedding. They are going backwards in time. That’s a Lannister lion on the left; the fish in its mouth is the sigil of House Tully. The central image is The Twins castle, where the wedding took place, with a dead direwolf, the Stark sigil hung in the middle. On the left is the Flayed Man, the sigil of the Boltons, holding a direwolf’s head. So it’s the victory of the Lannisters and the Boltons over the Starks and Tullys. > > Further back in time, that’s the hatching of Danys dragons. The large dragon is Dany, the Mother of Dragons, and the other three are her children. The “deer” are the horses of the Dothraki. And the comet is the Red Comet that first appeared with the birth of the dragons and the start of the War of the Five Kings. Nice! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/154 "2019-04-16T05:14:57Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Nice! I can’t take credit for all of that. I read several articles about the new opening sequence on line and that’s a summary. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/155 "2019-04-16T05:27:15Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > This show has really squandered reunion scenes. Last year the Jaime/Tyrion reunion could’ve been a really powerful scene and it was just kind of blown off. Arya/The Hound reunion was almost nothing. Sansa/Tyrion blew by with almost nothing. Jon/Arya was the bare minimum. > > You can say theyre pressed for time but it was their choice to have short seasons. These scenes would’ve cost nothing to film. Just good writing and good acting but they pretty much just punted them. > > Multiple scenes that could be some of the most powerful character scenes in the whole story basically just glossed over. > > Super disappointing. I had exactly the opposite reaction. I thought that the character interactions came across as very believable precisely because they are so understated—sure, they haven’t seen each other in a while, but basically, each of their lives has been completely turned on its head, as well. None are still really the same people, and they don’t connect with each other in the way they did; just having long, tearful reunion scenes would’ve undone all that development, bringing them back to square one. The way it was handled, I thought, was very successful in conveying exactly that. Although I realize that part of this might be because I just saw an episode of Star Trek Discovery where basically the whole episode was spent on long, tearful goodbyes trying and failing to create emotional impact by endlessly dwelling on telling us how deeply all of these characters connect and how important they are to each other. So maybe I was just primed for a bit of ‘less is more’. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think you guys are missing a thematic point about Jon Snow’s leadership and savvy. That’s understandable, since [the show’s writers did too.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826991) > > We all think of being Ned Stark as being dumb, but that’s an oversimplification. Who wouldn’t want Ned Stark’s leadership right now, rallying the world against the army of the dead? Ned Stark was bound strictly by a code of honor. His code of honor was an effective, positive trait for ruling the North. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Dany is a very flawed queen, and I honestly don’t know if the writers understand this. Maybe it’ll become a plot point, and maybe they’ll just gloss over it. I don’t expect them to handle this one well. > > She’s arrogant. She’s more concerned with being shown the proper respect and playing bullshit political games and have people treat her with reverance than she is about doing everything she can to fight for the living. We’ve seen that Jon is truly the leader they need - he has no ego, he doesn’t give a shit about his own position or power or glory, he is completely dedicated to fulfilling the role thrust upon him to defeat the Night King. Jon is the king the world needs, and Danerys is way too attached to southern games and meaningless political bullshit and having everyone show the proper deference for her royalty. Jon deposing/killing/whatever Danerys would be fully justified, in both a practical way, and in terms of the rules of royalty, if anyone even gives a shit about that anymore. I don’t think this is going to happen, but that’s the direction they should be going. > > Instead, I suspect that Dany’s flaws will not cost her and that she’ll end up being triumphant and right and wise, just because the writers have decided that she is right and wise, and not because she’s earned it. Just like Sansa. I think that this is basically the entire point of Jon Snow and Dany. Both are leaders that are right for their respective domains—a Queen of the South, and a King of the North. The trouble is, neither are right for the current situation—the strict honor code has already been the downfall of Ned Stark, and I think it might well be for Jon, too, unless he can actually embrace his heritage and outgrow his adoptive father. Dany has very clearly and purposefully been portrayed as flawed; her hubris and arrogance are almost certain to cost her—we’ve already seen this with Sam Tarly. Neither are the leaders you’d want in this situation. What’s needed is a pragmatist—somebody capable of sacrificing a village of innocents in order to save a kingdom, yet somebody not beholden to empty notions of power, like being the rightful such-and-such. Personally, I think the pieces have been very well set up to clash over exactly this issue. I’m not sure they can pull this off, but I’m cautiously optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/156 "2019-04-16T05:47:49Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Rewatching that reminded me that the White Walkers arranged the dead Wildlings and their body parts in some sort of symbolic pattern, similar to what was seen at the end of this episode. > > Any idea what is up with that? I haven’t rewatched any episodes and don’t recall if we’ve seen other instances of this. They arranged dead Night’s Watch and horses into a pattern in an earlier episode, too. That was during Jon Snow’s first expedition beyond the Wall, so probably season 2 or so. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/157 "2019-04-16T06:01:24Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > They arranged dead Night’s Watch and horses into a pattern in an earlier episode, too. That was during Jon Snow’s first expedition beyond the Wall, so probably season 2 or so. Here’s the [pattern of the Wildling bodies](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/b9-3BEHlp9hXCG0BpzgEMXYi1XI=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/16028998/ep_1.jpg) from the first episode. Here’s the [Dragonstone painting](https://i.stack.imgur.com/1ItUk.jpg) with a similar image. Here’s the [dead horses](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d22df12fc9fca50089be8434d4dc5824.webp) arranged in a pinwheel after the Battle of the Fist of the First Men (Season Three). By the time Jon, Mance, and the Wildlings find them the Night’s Watch fatalities have been reanimated and only pieces of the horses remain. The pinwheel shape is basically the same found at the Umber’s castle and in some of the cave paintings. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/158 "2019-04-16T06:08:43Z")
The final scene underlines a concern of mine from the last season: Bran is way too overpowered a character. Potentially he knows everything, which undermines the plots contrived by the other characters, for example the plot to use Bronn to kill Jaime. An interesting move might be to kill him off at a crucial point leaving the other characters blind but I suspect he will continue to be used as a clumsy deus ex machina for revealing important information. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/159 "2019-04-16T07:57:08Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Oh, and I thought the slapstick humor of Jon’s first ride on the dragon was way out tone for GoT. Plus some stupid dialog. “What do I hold onto” indeed. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > [I wanted the “Harry rides Buckbeak” music playing.](https://youtu.be/MKbr3o36IpY?t=131) Ha, all I could hear was Lois Lane saying to Superman, “[Can you read my mind](https://youtu.be/yOJtLC2pRII?t=247)?” ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2019, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542/160 "2019-04-16T08:18:27Z")
> [@aurora\_maire](#): > > I don’t know if anyone ever actually stated it as fact. I’m just assuming this from the stories that Arya and Shireen told about the dragons. The only people ever mentioned riding them were Targaryens. That led me to believe they were the only ones that could. But you are right, it looks like Danaerys does know that it’s not true since she wasn’t surprised. Maybe she never said anything about it because she doesn’t know what stories were told in Westeros. Also, after the Fellowship of the Wight escapade, we learned everyone can ride a dragon since they all flew back to the Wall. Dany was at the controls at the time, so maybe there is a difference between piloting a dragon and being cargo, but ostensibly not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-winterfell-8-01-4-14-19/832542.md?page=9)