# Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die, 5/22/11 and 5/29/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825 "2011-05-22T22:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/41 "2011-05-25T16:37:20Z")
Totally not about Ned. Was that a stag Father Lannister was gutting and skinning? Like they’ve done to the Beratheon house? Oh wait! Ned killing a wolf-- doing his own self in! Hey! Do any houses have a Raven as it’s sigil? Because Bran dreams about them. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/42 "2011-05-25T16:46:35Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Totally not about Ned. Was that a stag Father Lannister was gutting and skinning? Like they’ve done to the Beratheon house? Oh wait! Ned killing a wolf-- doing his own self in! > > Hey! Do any houses have a Raven as it’s sigil? Because Bran dreams about them. There is also the dead dire wolf in episode one, it had a stag’s antler rammed in its throat. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/43 "2011-05-25T19:44:42Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Totally not about Ned. Was that a stag Father Lannister was gutting and skinning? Like they’ve done to the Beratheon house? Oh wait! Ned killing a wolf-- doing his own self in! > > Hey! Do any houses have a Raven as it’s sigil? Because Bran dreams about them. Not that I can think of. They’re pretty heavily associated with the Maesters, since they manage the communications network that uses them. The men of the Night’s Watch are sometimes called “Crows”, but then again, I’ve never been too clear on the difference between crows and ravens. So, you know. What I thought was really weird about the scene was that Tywin Lannister, richest man on the continent, was butchering an animal. I mean, I assume the symbolism is pretty clear, but that’d be like Warren Buffet butchering tonight’s fillet… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/44 "2011-05-25T20:50:13Z")
That depiction of Tywin Lannister was not at all what I expected. I like the symbolism and all, but Tywin is not really a “get your hands dirty” kind of guy. He has people for that. Hell, even his people have people for that. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/45 "2011-05-25T21:11:26Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > That depiction of Tywin Lannister was not at all what I expected. I like the symbolism and all, but Tywin is not really a “get your hands dirty” kind of guy. He has people for that. Hell, even his people have people for that. I thinks it’s a metaphor for him being a man who doesn’t shy away from getting his hands dirty and is willing to do unpleasant, but necessary, jobs himself. And given his talk about the family name and their legacy, it also says he will kill and gut any obstacles to the family destiny. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/46 "2011-05-25T21:32:09Z")
He might also simply enjoy doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/47 "2011-05-26T01:04:15Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > This has nothing to do with honor and all to do with being a total retard. Once Ned does the noble yet stupid thing and gives the brotherfucker the heads up, he goes from stupid and jumps directly into brain dead by not telling the king. He deserves to be arrested for being a dumbass. He’s not that stupid. From his perspective, he has the city guard (gold-cloaks?), most of the Kings Council, the remaining Baratheons, The North, The Tullys the Arryans and presumably Dorne on his side. The imp as hostage, the Kings will putting him in charge of the kingdom and most of his enemies that aren’t woman or children are far away with Tywin Lannister. So its pretty easy to see him thinking he can afford to be merciful. By most calculations the cards are pretty heavily in his favor. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/48 "2011-05-26T12:27:27Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > He’s not that stupid. From his perspective, he has the city guard (gold-cloaks?), most of the Kings Council, the remaining Baratheons, The North, The Tullys the Arryans and presumably Dorne on his side. The imp as hostage, the Kings will putting him in charge of the kingdom and most of his enemies that aren’t woman or children are far away with Tywin Lannister. > > So its pretty easy to see him thinking he can afford to be merciful. By most calculations the cards are pretty heavily in his favor. That’s a pretty good point. Ned didn’t know how things were stacked against him. As far as he knew, he was holding a royal (hah!) flush. Too bad everyone else was playing Go Fish. I’d like to think that if Ned hadn’t thought he had Slynt (head of the Gold Cloaks) on his side, well, he’d have run for it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/49 "2011-05-26T12:33:23Z")
He had ample evidence that pretty much everyone at court was a scheming weasel who had only self-interest in mind. Yet he expected everyone to act honorably and follow the letter of the law, even to their own detriment and in spite of their own ambitions. THAT’S what makes him an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/50 "2011-05-26T12:41:42Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > He had ample evidence that pretty much everyone at court was a scheming weasel who had only self-interest in mind. Yet he expected everyone to act honorably and follow the letter of the law, even to their own detriment and in spite of their own ambitions. THAT’S what makes him an idiot. Not really. He knew Littlefinger was a scheming weasel, he just thought he would scheme on his side and not against it. And it makes sense for Littlefinger to do so, since again, Ned’s side seems the most likely to end up on top. Even with Ned captured, the Lannisters are still in a bad place. The only really stupid thing he does is not question the dagger as an obvious set-up. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/51 "2011-05-26T13:05:16Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Not really. He knew Littlefinger was a scheming weasel, he just thought he would scheme on his side and not against it. And it makes sense for Littlefinger to do so, since again, Ned’s side seems the most likely to end up on top. Even with Ned captured, the Lannisters are still in a bad place. > > The only really stupid thing he does is not question the dagger as an obvious set-up. Ned has a “side”? Well, I suppose he was on the “side” of law. His men were all dead already. And he shouldn’t have expected loyalty of Littlefinger, having just trashed his succession scheme. And why are the Lannisters in a bad place? Tyrion has walked free, though Ned doesn’t know it yet. Jaime has the, er, favor, of the queen (who is also a Lannister), Joffrey is a Lannister even if he doesn’t know it yet… What is the bad part? As to the dagger, I doubt he questioned it because he knew nothing about the setup. It was Cate who “discovered” the “real” owner, and acted on it entirely on her own. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/52 "2011-05-26T13:09:45Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > He might also simply enjoy doing it. That’s the impression I got. A sort of old fashioned “if a job’s worth doing…” kind of feel. I didn’t expect to see him quite like that, but I enjoyed it all the same. It could also be a power sort of thing. If a guy you’re arguing with is casually butchering an animal, it might put you slightly off your game. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/53 "2011-05-26T13:23:53Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > And why are the Lannisters in a bad place? Tyrion has walked free, though Ned doesn’t know it yet. Jaime has the, er, favor, of the queen (who is also a Lannister), Joffrey is a Lannister even if he doesn’t know it yet… What is the bad part? Well, I’m discussing things from Ned’s perspective. As far as he knows, they have Tyrion as a hostage. And the Lannisters are in a bad place because the Starks have more then half of Westeros as natural allies. The Baratheons are obviously down for unseating Joffrey, the Starks have the North, the Aryans think the Lannisters killed Jon Aryan (and Ned doesn’t know Catelyans sister has gone loony) the Lannisters have already attacked the Tullys and so far as Ned knows, he has control of Kings Landing, as before Robert dies Ned has his best friend on the throne, and after he dies the Hound is pretty much the only fighting man Joffery has left as Jamie has already cleared out to join his father. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/54 "2011-05-26T13:51:17Z")
Arryn. Jon Arryn. Easily conflated with “Arya”, so I can see where the wires crossed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/55 "2011-05-26T15:29:26Z")
So it looks like they’re setting up the first season to end with the various clans aligned against each other. BTW, my entirely uneducated guess as to the final scene (of the last episode of this first season) is that one of those dragon eggs is going to hatch. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/56 "2011-05-26T16:56:44Z")
Aren’t there 7 or 8 episodes to go? The way these things are paced they could have Drogo landing ashore and burning down the countryside in two weeks. I wouldn’t be surprised if Cate’s titty-sucking nephew sat upon the iron throne by July! ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/57 "2011-05-26T17:02:43Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Aren’t there 7 or 8 episodes to go? The way these things are paced they could have Drogo landing ashore and burning down the countryside in two weeks. I wouldn’t be surprised if Cate’s titty-sucking nephew sat upon the iron throne by July! Nope. This one was number seven. Three more for the season. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/58 "2011-05-26T17:09:32Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Aren’t there 7 or 8 episodes to go? Only 4 (since this one will actually air on TV on Monday). The series is 10 episodes long. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/59 "2011-05-26T17:11:24Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Well, I’m discussing things from Ned’s perspective. As far as he knows, they have Tyrion as a hostage. And the Lannisters are in a bad place because the Starks have more then half of Westeros as natural allies. The Baratheons are obviously down for unseating Joffrey, the Starks have the North, the Aryans think the Lannisters killed Jon Aryan (and Ned doesn’t know Catelyans sister has gone loony) the Lannisters have already attacked the Tullys and so far as Ned knows, he has control of Kings Landing, as before Robert dies Ned has his best friend on the throne, and after he dies the Hound is pretty much the only fighting man Joffery has left as Jamie has already cleared out to join his father. All Ned’s local men are dead, everyone at court has betrayed him, and he has a knife pressed against his throat. He is not thinking, “Ooh, I’ve got the Lanisters just where I want them now.” As to whatever “natural allies” he has, how much does it matter if the head of the house is dead and the wife humiliated by a dwarf? Plus, I don’t think we know about any of these alliances from anything we’ve seen on the TV series to date, so please don’t discuss it further if you’re referring to background from the books. Ooh, and forgot to mention – if he DID know about the obvious knife set up, which IIRC was done by Littlefinger, then he absolutely should have known not to trust him later. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/60 "2011-05-26T17:30:03Z")
Trusting Littlefinger is the second most braindead thing Ned has done. Ned knows Littlefinger wants his wife and can’t stand him. But since Littlefinger said he couldn’t be trusted, then that must have been some sort of triple reverse psychology. Only 3 episodes left? Man, I better see some rapin’ and pillagin’! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=4)