# Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die, 5/22/11 and 5/29/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825 "2011-05-22T22:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/81 "2011-05-27T20:00:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I don’t think Ned really knew that either. As regent he would have a few years to figure that out. How old is Joffrey anyway? Would he be king at 18? 21? He send one of his guard off with a letter to Stannis Baratheon (younger brother of the King, with Renly being the youngest). The content wasn’t shown but you can guess. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/82 "2011-05-27T20:04:27Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > He send one of his guard off with a letter to Stannis Baratheon (younger brother of the King, with Renly being the youngest). The content wasn’t shown but you can guess. New knew who the King _should_ be, but how was he gonna prove that Joffrey was _not_ the rightful heir? Is hair color enough? Be interesting if the king has torturers to get at the “truth”. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/83 "2011-05-27T20:27:23Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Sure it would have. The King says “Kill the dog and the butcher’s boy”, the dog and boy get killed. The kings says, “I don’t care that the Lannisters tried to kill you wife once and your kid twice, shut the fuck up!” everybody shuts the fuck up. The king yells, “Kill the whore and those bastard children!” The whore and the bastard children get killed. You’re assuming that Robert instantly takes Ned’s word for it. It’s like you totally ignored 95% of that post. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/84 "2011-05-27T20:31:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > How was Ned planning to enforce the “rightful heir” portion of the will? Was he just going to point out the difference in hair color and hope that everyone agreed that Joffrey couldn’t possibly be Robert’s son? Is there some tribal council that would adjudicate such a thing? The main thing was that the King’s wishes were that Ned would protect Joffrey, which Ned had no intention of doing. By wording it the way he did, it gave Ned the power to protect the bastard children from Cersei’s wrath. At least, in theory. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/85 "2011-05-27T20:36:51Z")
Also, I think it’s one of the strengths of Martin’s writing that unlike many books, the characters are not essentially omnipotent. Most heroes have all the knowledge that the readers have, and generally make the best decision possible AND have the right outcome work out for them. Not so much with Martin. His characters, even the smart ones, have to make snap judgment calls in the thick of action, and are relying on the words of hotheads, liars, and the poorly-informed. And often, even when they make a good decision, the coin falls the wrong way and things go to shit anyway. This is known as “real-life”. It’s easy to sit back and yell at them for doing something we know to be wrong, but let’s face it, plop most of us down in Westeros and we’re going to be crab food within a week. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/86 "2011-05-27T20:58:49Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Then no harm no foul, right? The sure ain’t gonna be bought to justice by stupidly keeping this information to yourself. I think Ned’s strategy was to line up his forces through Littlefinger and then make his move. He figured that Robert’s will combined with Littlefinger’s men would win the day. Once he had the situation under control he could go about proving that Joffrey was not the rightful heir. It didn’t work out but it wasn’t a crazy strategy. If he had told Robert the truth there is no telling what would have happened. Perhaps Robert doesn’t believe him. Or perhaps he does and orders Cersei’s execution but isn’t obeyed. A king on the verge of death is much less powerful particularly if he orders something as drastic as his queen’s execution. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/87 "2011-05-30T01:49:11Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > New knew who the King _should_ be, but how was he gonna prove that Joffrey was _not_ the rightful heir? Is hair color enough? > > Be interesting if the king has torturers to get at the “truth”. Despite last week’s interminable genetics discussion, I think hair color would be enough. It was basically enough to convince Ned Stark, who isn’t exactly the revolutionary sort; presumably if he showed his findings to other folks, they’d find it about as convincing as he did. He could also tell about the conversation he’d had with Cersei and her admission. But most importantly, sufficient proof of Joffrey’s ancestry would consist of **control of the city guards**. With that control, whatever proof he offered would suffice; without it, no proof whatsoever would suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/88 "2011-05-30T02:12:47Z")
I didn’t enjoy the episode as much as I have most of them. Perhaps it was Ned’s stubborn, stupid, and doomed honor. While I’ve got nothing against gratituous sex and nudity, the scene in the brothel was too gratituous. Next week, I believe, is the episode written by Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/89 "2011-05-30T02:29:20Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > While I’ve got nothing against gratituous sex and nudity, the scene in the brothel was too gratituous. “Littlefinger’s up next giving a monologue, about a page and a half. Let’s see–in the book where does this scene take place?” “In a hallway talking to Varys.”\* “No, that’s not good, lacks visual impact. What can we show on-screen during the monologue?” “Tits?” “That’s it!” - Not a spoiler since I don’t even remember if this monologue is in the book, much less am representing it accurately. ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/90 "2011-05-30T02:35:58Z")
I just noticed that the house sigils are next to the names of the actors during the opening credits. Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/91 "2011-05-30T02:40:46Z")
I might have noticed it wrongly, or am remembering it wrongly, but I saw the wolf, the dragon, the lion and…the raven?..as four sigils ringing around the ending of the opener. Someone asked before, and I can’t remember what the answer was, but…whose sigil is the raven? The Wall, perhaps? Or am I just not seeing it right… ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/92 "2011-05-30T02:43:13Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > I might have noticed it wrongly, or am remembering it wrongly, but I saw the wolf, the dragon, the lion and…the raven?..as four sigils ringing around the ending of the opener. > > Someone asked before, and I can’t remember what the answer was, but…whose sigil is the raven? The Wall, perhaps? Or am I just not seeing it right… House Arryn is a bird of some sort, according the HBO viewer guide. Falcon, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/93 "2011-05-30T02:47:01Z")
Ah…that would explain it, thanks 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/94 "2011-05-30T03:40:47Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Sure it would have. The King says “Kill the dog and the butcher’s boy”, the dog and boy get killed. The kings says, “I don’t care that the Lannisters tried to kill you wife once and your kid twice, shut the fuck up!” everybody shuts the fuck up. The king yells, “Kill the whore and those bastard children!” The whore and the bastard children get killed. The king says “Ned is to rule until my heir comes of age”, how did that go again? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/95 "2011-05-30T04:15:53Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > I might have noticed it wrongly, or am remembering it wrongly, but I saw the wolf, the dragon, the lion and…the raven?..as four sigils ringing around the ending of the opener. > > Someone asked before, and I can’t remember what the answer was, but…whose sigil is the raven? The Wall, perhaps? Or am I just not seeing it right… It’s a wolf, a lion, a dragon, and a stag. Stark, Lannister, Targaryean, and Baratheon. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/96 "2011-05-30T05:53:06Z")
I thought the scene with Khal Drogo talking about the beatdown he was going to lay down was absolutely fantastic. That actor hasn’t had too much to do until now, but really nailed that scene. As for Ned being stupid, it would be one thing if he thought a piece of paper was enough. He didn’t. He thought he’d bribed the city watch to be on his side, and it was painful as hell for him to sink to that level of non-honorableness. Sadly for him, he failed, but he wasn’t just pure naive puppies-and-bunnies-and-honor. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/97 "2011-05-30T07:30:58Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > [Stupid Ned meme.](http://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/introducing-stupid-ned-stark) > > GAH!!! So dumb! Oh god. #4 has pissed me off for literally YEARS now. And yeah… Ned needed to consolidate his power FIRST. Play along, get Joffrey on the throne under his regency, make sure he had loyal troops on the ground IN the keep, marginalize the queen. There’s just no excuse for the level of short-sighted idiocy Ned and Catelyn evidence over and over. Oh, and I hope I can be excused for a little glee that the Old Bear is being played by Santa? _squee_ ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/98 "2011-05-30T07:44:44Z")
The wildlings attacked Bran south of the wall right? But how did they get there? I don’t see how they can get past that huge wall. And if they can, one would figure the other could too. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/99 "2011-05-30T08:21:28Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > The wildlings attacked Bran south of the wall right? But how did they get there? I don’t see how they can get past that huge wall. And if they can, one would figure the other could too. Yes, they were south of the Wall. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/100 "2011-05-30T08:47:20Z")
I meant to say “the others” above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=6)