# Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die, 5/22/11 and 5/29/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825 "2011-05-22T22:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/101 "2011-05-30T11:59:51Z")
Mr. jp: You can sail around the wall, the night watch patrols the coast too but it is easier to sneak a small boat through their undermanned patrols than to climb a 700 foot wall. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/102 "2011-05-30T13:01:11Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > Sure it would have. The King says “Kill the dog and the butcher’s boy”, the dog and boy get killed. The kings says, “I don’t care that the Lannisters tried to kill you wife once and your kid twice, shut the fuck up!” everybody shuts the fuck up. The king yells, “Kill the whore and those bastard children!” The whore and the bastard children get killed. Killed by who? Do you think there might be a bit of a difference between killing a pet or some peasent boy and the Queen, her son and the heir to the throne both who are members of the most powerful house in the land? Who is going to carry out the dying King’s order and then wait around for the Lannisters to come around seeking revenge (and the crowne)? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/103 "2011-05-30T13:07:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Killed by who? Do you think there might be a bit of a difference between killing a pet or some peasent boy and the Queen, her son and the heir to the throne both who are members of the most powerful house in the land? Who is going to carry out the dying King’s order and then wait around for the Lannisters to come around seeking revenge (and the crowne)? Especially as the king may die any minute, making the kid you’re on your way to kill the new king. Do you think his guards will just allow you to kill the king? ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/104 "2011-05-30T13:09:50Z")
Wow, that brothel scene was a bit much. Poor Ned. I knew what was going to happen and that almost made it worse. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/105 "2011-05-30T15:22:49Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > Wow, that brothel scene was a bit much. I never thought I’d say that _any_ female sex and nudity in a film was gratuitous, but… ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/106 "2011-05-30T16:09:21Z")
Finally just watched it. Knowing what was going to happen just made it worse watching Ned be so stupid. _sigh_ It was good to see Ghost again, even if all he did was run past the camera. Jason Mamoa kicked ass as Khal Drogo this episode (I’ve had a crush on him since Stargate: Atlantis–I named one of my cats after his character) and we laughed at his line “I will rape their women” right in front of his wife, and she just looked at him all dreamy-eyed. Ha. It must be hard for actors to learn lines in a different language–even more so when that language is made up. I guess Star Trek did that a lot with Klingons, too. I couldn’t watch the scene with the butchering, though. I just stared at the living room wall and listened to the dialogue until it was over. This vegetarian just couldn’t handle it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/107 "2011-05-30T16:13:35Z")
Speaking of Ghost, he looked small and cute not big and threatening. Like a small dog. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/108 "2011-05-30T17:27:18Z")
Well, they used real wolves \ and real wolves don’t generally get too big. They could have used some of the bigger dog breeds and probably pulled it off, since direwolves ARE supposed to be pretty dang big. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/109 "2011-05-30T17:54:26Z")
The Dothraki scenes are far and away the best. Can’t say I’m on board with all the stupid shit going on at King’s Landing. No use in banging the “stupid Ned” drum, but it does leave one with one’s head shaking. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/110 "2011-05-30T17:59:25Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > Well, they used real wolves \ and real wolves don’t generally get too big. They could have used some of the bigger dog breeds and probably pulled it off, since direwolves ARE supposed to be pretty dang big. They aren’t real wolves, they’re a breed of dog called Northern Inuit. Here’s what the wiki has to say: > [@Wiki](#): > > The **Northern Inuit Dog** is a breed originating in the late 1980s, in an attempt to create a domestic dog breed more closely resembling the wolf. > \ > In the late 1980s, the founder of the breed, Eddie Harrison, utilized several mixed-breed rescue dogs of unknown origin or heritage, crossing them with the Siberian Husky, Alaskan Malamute, and German Shepherd to produce early Northern Inuit dogs. > **[Tamaskan Dog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Inuit_Dog)** > > Tamaskan dogs are a dog breed from Finland that have been selectively bred to resemble a wolf or wolfdog.\[citation needed\] Although their exact origins are uncertain, these mixed breed dogs were primarily arctic breed crosses of Alaskan husky, Alaskan Malamute, Canadian Eskimo dog, German shepherd, Labrador husky, and Siberian husky. Tamaskans are not recognized as a breed by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale but are recognized as a breed by the American Rare Breed Association. > Some sour... ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/111 "2011-05-30T20:51:30Z")
On an unrelated note, [Vaes Dothrak](http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/china051811/c28_RTR2MAHM.jpg) has been found…in [China](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordos). ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/112 "2011-05-30T22:24:54Z")
Was there some sound tweaking when the Dothraki were speaking? Parts of Drogo’s speech sounded artificial. Loved that scene, and noticed that for the second time (the other was Viserys), Drogo sorta leaned over, got close to his victim’s face and peered into his eyes. Way cool. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/113 "2011-05-30T23:32:00Z")
> [@Feyrat](#): > > Oh god. #4 has pissed me off for literally YEARS now. > > And yeah… Ned needed to consolidate his power FIRST. Play along, get Joffrey on the throne under his regency, make sure he had loyal troops on the ground IN the keep, marginalize the queen. There’s just no excuse for the level of short-sighted idiocy Ned and Catelyn evidence over and over. It’s entirely possible that was the plan. However, IIRC as soon as he walked into the room Joffrey informed him that he intended to be crowned ASAP. So, he could either let the little shit be crowned in two weeks, or he could make his move then and there. Seeing as how Joffrey was already moving to seize power what was Ned supposed to do? He thought he was set to win if Cersei decided to be nasty about it. Hell, for that matter Cersei thought she was set to win if Ned was nasty about it. It all came down to Slynt and his guardsmen and what side they decided to join. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/114 "2011-05-30T23:42:59Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > They aren’t real wolves, they’re a breed of dog called Northern Inuit. Here’s what the wiki has to say: > > [Tamaskan Dog - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Inuit_Dog) I pass a restaurant on my way to work in the morning that has one of those lying out in front all the time. It’s pretty awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/115 "2011-05-30T23:54:13Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > It’s entirely possible that was the plan. However, IIRC as soon as he walked into the room Joffrey informed him that he intended to be crowned ASAP. So, he could either let the little shit be crowned in two weeks, or he could make his move then and there. Joffery had also just made Cersei regent. It was basically now or never for Ned to try and get control, which is what he tried to do. I really don’t think Ned could’ve done much other then what he did, aside from maybe fleeing back to Winterfell and leaving the Kingdom to the Lannisters. His plan A was to give Cersei a chance to run for it and tell Robert when he got back from hunting, which was a good plan except Robert was dying when he got back. So plan B was to get Robert to hand over the kingdom, make sure he had the city guard at his back and then use them and the will to secure Kings Landing, presumably while Stannis, the Tullys, Winterfell and the Arryns all got together to beat up the Lannisters. Which was also a good plan, except he got double-crossed. The only other thing he could’ve done was team up with Renly, but then he’d be encouraging a three way civil war between the Stannis, Renly and the Lannisters, rather then the two way civil war that favored him more heavily. And of course, Littlefinger double-crossed him, but there wasn’t really any reason for Ned to trust Renly any more then Littlefinger, and of the two, Ned had more of a working relationship with Littlefinger. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/116 "2011-05-31T00:04:03Z")
If Ned had made sure Robert’s room was crammed with witnesses when Robert declared him regent, he wouldn’t have any of that trouble. Even if he didn’t convince Robert to renounce Joffrey, Ned would have had a few years and sufficient power to resolve that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/117 "2011-05-31T00:16:21Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If Ned had made sure Robert’s room was crammed with witnesses when Robert declared him regent, he wouldn’t have any of that trouble. Who would’ve been useful as a witness? Selmy believes the will. The City Guard wouldn’t have cared, they just want their $$. Renly, Varys, Littlefinger and Pycelle already know the truth. Obviously Cersei/Jofferey/the Hound aren’ going to care. Everyone else of note has already cleared out of the capital. Neds problem isn’t that people don’t believe he was declared regent. His problem is that no one in the position to help him cares. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/118 "2011-05-31T00:18:01Z")
In [his review of this week’s episode](http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-the-boar-war#), I thought Alan Sepinwall sums things up pretty well, borrowing a metaphor from a previous HBO series, Ned is “playing checkers on a chess board.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/119 "2011-05-31T00:21:57Z")
Could it be that making Ned so stupid is Martin’s attempt at historical accuracy? Medieval times were noted for the massive stupidity of the aristocracy, though the absolute pinnacle is admittedly the period immediately prior to World War I, a perfect storm of aristo stupidity that still leaves historians gasping with hysterical laughter to this day. Ned seems only average stupid to me, by medieval aristo standards. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/120 "2011-05-31T00:32:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Could it be that making Ned so stupid is Martin’s attempt at historical accuracy? Medieval times were noted for the massive stupidity of the aristocracy, though the absolute pinnacle is admittedly the period immediately prior to World War I, a perfect storm of aristo stupidity that still leaves historians gasping with hysterical laughter to this day. Ned seems only average stupid to me, by medieval aristo standards. I really have trouble with all the claims of his stupidity–I think he’s operating from a different place from where Cersei is. He’s not interested in winning, and victory isn’t measured for him by the imposition of his will. Rather, success is measured by his taking right actions. He’s willing to plunge the kingdom into war if that’s the result of his right actions. He’s staunchly traditionalist. It’s not that he’s playing checkers on a chess board; rather, he’s not playing anything, and refuses to play the game, and loses by forfeit. It’s true that at the end he makes a few moves to play this game that he despises. At that point, he’s hopelessly outclassed by his opponents, who have played it all their lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=7)