# Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die, 5/22/11 and 5/29/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825 "2011-05-22T22:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/121 "2011-05-31T02:59:22Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Joffery had also just made Cersei regent. It was basically now or never for Ned to try and get control, which is what he tried to do. > > I really don’t think Ned could’ve done much other then what he did, aside from maybe fleeing back to Winterfell and leaving the Kingdom to the Lannisters. I don’t think a Lannister controlled kingdom is a great outcome for the Starks at this point either. And it’s not like Ned is stupid. He is just has a high sense of honor while everyone else around him are a bunch of opportunist scumbags. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/122 "2011-05-31T04:47:17Z")
I also don’t think Ned was stupid. Naive, and not nearly as politically shrewd as Cersei and Littlefinger, but not stupid. He played the cards he had as best he could, given his own sense of honor, his friendship with Robert, and his hope of avoiding all-out civil war (even after his son had been nearly killed, and his men had been killed in the street, by the Lannisters). Having more witnesses in the room when the King made him Lord Protector wouldn’t have made any difference - everyone at court heard about it in the throne room later, and how much good did it do him? He thought he had the City Guard at his back and had to make his move right away after Joffrey announced his intention to be crowned within a fortnight (14 days). Cersei demanded that Ned swear allegiance to Joffrey right then and there; he couldn’t, knowing that he’d already written to Stannis to let him know that he would soon be king, and knowing that Joffrey had no lawful claim on the Iron Throne. Events forced his hand, and he was betrayed. On a less important note: Did anyone notice at the very beginning that, in the “Last time on _Game of Thrones_” wrapup, Viserys didn’t make the clunking noise when his gold-crowned head hit the ground? It had, last week. I guess the sound editor thought that was just a bit _too_ much… ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/123 "2011-05-31T18:18:44Z")
One of the things that is a bit confusing is the timing of events, both during episodes and between them. For example, when Tyrion was taken prisoner, people in King’s Landing seemed to find out pretty quickly, but in this episodes, no one realizes he’s been released. At this point, I’m beginning to think Daenerys is the best choice as ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/124 "2011-05-31T18:24:30Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > One of the things that is a bit confusing is the timing of events, both during episodes and between them. For example, when Tyrion was taken prisoner, people in King’s Landing seemed to find out pretty quickly, but in this episodes, no one realizes he’s been released. Well, two good explanations for that. One, Tyrion got nabbed at an inn that wasn’t all that far outside King’s Landing. Maybe a few days (a week?) away. So, it takes a week to get there, and the guys delivering the news will probably get some gold for their trouble. So, news is going to travel fast. Two, the Eeyrie is in the middle of nowhere and between it and King’s Landing is some very dangerous territory due to the hill tribes. The only way a message is getting out of there quickly is if their Maester sends a raven. Is Lyssa going to want to advertise to the world what a screwup she is? Probably not. So, there you go. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/125 "2011-05-31T18:49:49Z")
In the market with Dany, Ser Jorah steps away and is told by the boy that he’s been pardoned and can now go home. He looks thoughtful, then turns back and prevents the _khaleesi_’s poisoning. The poisoning was presumably an assassination attempt authorized by King Robert. I had the impression that Jorah could’ve chosen to let the poisoning take place, but had come to care for Dany and decided, on the spot, to prevent it. Is that right? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/126 "2011-05-31T19:01:33Z")
That’s exactly how I interpreted it. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/127 "2011-05-31T19:03:25Z")
Ned was being stupid in this episode but not entirely for the reasons suggested. At the point he confronts Joffery in the throne room he had a choice to make. He can do what he did, which is declare Joffery an incestous bastard and demand he foresake the throne. Well we saw how well that turned out. Now admittedly, Ned was relying on allies who weren’t and the whole thing blew up in his face. But Ned really had no proof of anything that could sufficiently convince the Court. He’s fighing the Lannisters with wealth and an army behind them so he’d better go into it preparred for a full scale war, regardless. But there was another choice to be made. He didn’t need to “out” the new king. For what purpose does that serve anyway? Ned’s already had a messenger go to Stannis and tell him Ned’s supporting him as the new king.Tell him to come to King’s Landing and assume the throne. Meanwhile, Ned takes over as per the terms of the will until Stannis arrives. Would it work? I dunno. It’s possible Ned can make some noise and convince enough people he means to support Joffery while waiting for Stannis to arrive. It’s certainly better to try that than to waltz in with no proof and call Joffery a bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/128 "2011-05-31T19:12:25Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Ned was being stupid in this episode but not entirely for the reasons suggested. > > At the point he confronts Joffery in the throne room he had a choice to make. He can do what he did, which is declare Joffery an incestous bastard and demand he foresake the throne. Well we saw how well that turned out. Now admittedly, Ned was relying on allies who weren’t and the whole thing blew up in his face. But Ned really had no proof of anything that could sufficiently convince the Court. He’s fighing the Lannisters with wealth and an army behind them so he’d better go into it preparred for a full scale war, regardless. > > But there was another choice to be made. He didn’t need to “out” the new king. For what purpose does that serve anyway? Ned’s already had a messenger go to Stannis and tell him Ned’s supporting him as the new king.Tell him to come to King’s Landing and assume the throne. Meanwhile, Ned takes over as per the terms of the will until Stannis arrives. > > Would it work? I dunno. It’s possible Ned can make some noise and convince enough people he means to support Joffery while waiting for Stannis to arrive. It’s certainly better to try that than to waltz in with no proof and call Joffery a bastard. No, it wouldn’t work. Joffrey/Cersei aren’t going to let Ned be lord protector. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/129 "2011-05-31T19:14:15Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Ned was being stupid in this episode but not entirely for the reasons suggested. > > At the point he confronts Joffery in the throne room he had a choice to make. He can do what he did, which is declare Joffery an incestous bastard and demand he foresake the throne. Well we saw how well that turned out. Now admittedly, Ned was relying on allies who weren’t and the whole thing blew up in his face. But Ned really had no proof of anything that could sufficiently convince the Court. He’s fighing the Lannisters with wealth and an army behind them so he’d better go into it preparred for a full scale war, regardless. > > But there was another choice to be made. He didn’t need to “out” the new king. For what purpose does that serve anyway? Ned’s already had a messenger go to Stannis and tell him Ned’s supporting him as the new king.Tell him to come to King’s Landing and assume the throne. Meanwhile, Ned takes over as per the terms of the will until Stannis arrives. > > Would it work? I dunno. It’s possible Ned can make some noise and convince enough people he means to support Joffery while waiting for Stannis to arrive. It’s certainly better to try that than to waltz in with no proof and call Joffery a bastard. That would have forced him to pledge loyalty to Joffery and he wasn’t about to do that. It would either force him to break an oath, or force him to stay loyal to someone he knew wasn’t the rightful heir to the throne. Either way, his honor wouldn’t let him do it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/130 "2011-05-31T19:17:59Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > But there was another choice to be made. He didn’t need to “out” the new king. For what purpose does that serve anyway? Ned’s already had a messenger go to Stannis and tell him Ned’s supporting him as the new king.Tell him to come to King’s Landing and assume the throne. Meanwhile, Ned takes over as per the terms of the will until Stannis arrives. Cersei’s already declared herself regent, and makes pretty clear she isn’t interested in the will. And she knows Ned will try and put Stannis on the throne, so its not like she’s going to negotiate the point. There isn’t an option for Ned to take over except by force, which is what he tries to do. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/131 "2011-05-31T19:18:05Z")
Don’t think it would have worked. Cersei was tearing up the regency document even before Ned claimed that Joffrey was illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/132 "2011-05-31T19:27:35Z")
I think much of the reason that Ned gets captured is not that he’s stupid, but Cersi is and he keeps assuming she’ll do the smart thing and get the hell out of Kings Landing. She lucks out with Robert being injured, and then with Ned being to nice to tell him he’s been cuckolded. Then she tries to take control and grab Ned, which is a decent short-term plan, but even with the Guard on her side, she can’t kill him since he has Tyrion as a counter-hostage (so far as she knows, anyways), she’s in an undefended city with the only army loyal to her far away and already fighting the Tullys (and presumably soon to be fighting the Tully’s+Starks+Arryns), and Stannis is presumably somewhere with an army ready to come take his crown, and doesn’t really care if Cersi has Ned as a hostage or not. Neds actually in a pretty OK place, even with his plan farked. And Cersei and Joffery are still screwed, the best they can probably hope for is to trade Ned for the opportunity to go join the rest of the Lannister army, which is what they should’ve done in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/133 "2011-05-31T19:35:23Z")
You could just as well say that Ned lucked out because Jaime didn’t kill him after the guard wounded him. Which Jaime’s father clearly thought should have been done. ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/134 "2011-05-31T19:39:47Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > \ > On a less important note: Did anyone notice at the very beginning that, in the “Last time on _Game of Thrones_” wrapup, Viserys didn’t make the clunking noise when his gold-crowned head hit the ground? It had, last week. I guess the sound editor thought that was just a bit _too_ much… I did! I did! I was actually looking forward to it, and was disappointed in no clunk. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/135 "2011-05-31T19:44:55Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > She lucks out with Robert being injured Not really. Remember the conversation between Ned, Ser Barristan, and Varys - Robert’s squire, the one who gave him his wine, was a Lannister (a cousin of Cercei’s). Ser Barristan doesn’t seem to want to believe what Varys and Ned are hinting at when they bring that up, but what that is is clear - the kid deliberately got Robert so drunk he’d have an accident. It’s probably _bad_ luck that he lived long enough to get back to the castle. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/136 "2011-05-31T19:49:14Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Not really. Remember the conversation between Ned, Ser Barristan, and Varys - Robert’s squire, the one who gave him his wine, was a Lannister (a cousin of Cercei’s). > > Ser Barristan doesn’t seem to want to believe what Varys and Ned are hinting at when they bring that up, but what that is is clear - the kid deliberately got Robert so drunk he’d have an accident. It’s probably _bad_ luck that he lived long enough to get back to the castle. Its pretty clear that the hunting party was incummunicado, so if Cersei did arrange to have Robert killed, it wasn’t in response to her conversation with Ned. So that would make her doubly lucky, she decided to off Robert just as her secret was coming out. Plus, get my large, alcoholic husband drunk so maybe a boar will kill him seems kinda like a scattershot way to kill someone. Even if the wine was drugged. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/137 "2011-05-31T19:49:15Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Not really. Remember the conversation between Ned, Ser Barristan, and Varys - Robert’s squire, the one who gave him his wine, was a Lannister (a cousin of Cercei’s). > > Ser Barristan doesn’t seem to want to believe what Varys and Ned are hinting at when they bring that up, but what that is is clear - the kid deliberately got Robert so drunk he’d have an accident. It’s probably _bad_ luck that he lived long enough to get back to the castle. It’s still lucky. Being drunk in the woods is hardly a death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/138 "2011-05-31T20:08:08Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Not really. Remember the conversation between Ned, Ser Barristan, and Varys - Robert’s squire, the one who gave him his wine, was a Lannister (a cousin of Cercei’s). > > Ser Barristan doesn’t seem to want to believe what Varys and Ned are hinting at when they bring that up, but what that is is clear - the kid deliberately got Robert so drunk he’d have an accident. It’s probably _bad_ luck that he lived long enough to get back to the castle. Being drunk does not guarantee an accident, hell Robert was drunk a grand majority of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/139 "2011-05-31T20:11:13Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Being drunk does not guarantee an accident, hell Robert was drunk a grand majority of the time. Quite a difference between drunk in your castle and drunk while hunting a boar. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/140 "2011-05-31T20:17:20Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Quite a difference between drunk in your castle and drunk while hunting a boar. > > -Joe And between drunk while hunting a boar and being dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=8)