# Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die, 5/22/11 and 5/29/11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825 "2011-05-22T22:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/141 "2011-05-31T20:21:00Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > And between drunk while hunting a boar and being dead. Looks like it’s got a probably of 1 so far in Westeros! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/142 "2011-05-31T21:57:08Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > In the market with Dany, Ser Jorah steps away and is told by the boy that he’s been pardoned and can now go home. He looks thoughtful, then turns back and prevents the _khaleesi_’s poisoning. The poisoning was presumably an assassination attempt authorized by King Robert. I had the impression that Jorah could’ve chosen to let the poisoning take place, but had come to care for Dany and decided, on the spot, to prevent it. Is that right? I couldn’t figure that out. At first I thought he was supposed to assassinate Dany as per Robert’s orders. But then who is the other chump who actually makes the attempt? > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Ser Barristan doesn’t seem to want to believe what Varys and Ned are hinting at when they bring that up, but what that is is clear - the kid deliberately got Robert so drunk he’d have an accident. It’s probably bad luck that he lived long enough to get back to the castle. > > It’s still lucky. Being drunk in the woods is hardly a death sentence. Maybe they are taking the opportunity to sow discontent against the Lannisters by implying that the Queen had something to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/143 "2011-05-31T21:58:17Z")
> [@kath94](#): > > I did! I did! I was actually looking forward to it, and was disappointed in no clunk. ☹ Yep, I was specifically waiting to hear it, but no “clunk”. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/144 "2011-05-31T22:29:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I couldn’t figure that out. At first I thought he was supposed to assassinate Dany as per Robert’s orders. But then who is the other chump who actually makes the attempt? I think they just put the word out. “Kill Daenerys Targaryen and get 1,000 gold dragons!” He’s apparently just some chump that heard about the reward. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/145 "2011-06-01T01:14:46Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I think they just put the word out. “Kill Daenerys Targaryen and get 1,000 gold dragons!” He’s apparently just some chump that heard about the reward. I disagree. I think he was hired by Varys, or by one of Varys’ contacts, or by one of Varys’ contacts’ contacts, or . . . you get the idea. I think it’s clear that when Varys tells Ned it’s too late to stop it, that he has done more than simply offer a reward. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/146 "2011-06-01T01:22:00Z")
Damn you, Littlefinger! I _liked_ you! How the hell does he think he’s going to get Cat out of all this? Lemme see, you just backstabbed her husband. This will obviously piss off their children as well, so he’ll have to get involved with that, and if you think Cat will be pissy at him over doing this to Ned, she’ll tear the realm another kingdom if something happens to her kids! Ned’s like watching a trainwreck. Also, from general internet talking, I thought Tywin was supposed to be a real mean bastard. I dunno, I kinda thought he was pretty good with Jaime. I mean, opposed to his daughter and the Imp he seems okay. Edit: Well, this is all on the presumption that Littlefinger was talking about Cat in the brothel, but maybe the obvious stick hit me too hard. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/147 "2011-06-01T01:27:59Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I disagree. I think he was hired by Varys, or by one of Varys’ contacts, or by one of Varys’ contacts’ contacts, or . . . you get the idea. I think it’s clear that when Varys tells Ned it’s too late to stop it, that he has done more than simply offer a reward. Do you recall what Varys was talking with Ilyrio about? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/148 "2011-06-01T01:29:01Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > Edit: Well, this is all on the presumption that Littlefinger was talking about Cat in the brothel, but maybe the obvious stick hit me too hard. He was. Brandon Stark is the one he fought the duel against and Ned is the brother that got Cat. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/149 "2011-06-01T01:48:23Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Do you recall what Varys was talking with Ilyrio about? Only vaguely, and feel free to refresh my memory, but keep in mind that was before Robert ordered her killed. My suspension of disbelief fails on the thought that a wine merchant is carrying a poisoned cask to Vaes Dothrak just in case he runs across someone there’s a reward out for. He was prepared; it wasn’t random. Varys has to follow orders, and I can easily picture him ordering the assasination while hoping it fails. But he’s pragmatic, and should it succeed, he’ll shrug and turn to Plan B. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/150 "2011-06-01T01:54:46Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Only vaguely, and feel free to refresh my memory, but keep in mind that was before Robert ordered her killed. My suspension of disbelief fails on the thought that a wine merchant is carrying a poisoned cask to Vaes Dothrak just in case he runs across someone there’s a reward out for. He was prepared; it wasn’t random. > > Varys has to follow orders, and I can easily picture him ordering the assasination while hoping it fails. But he’s pragmatic, and should it succeed, he’ll shrug and turn to Plan B. I don’t recall myself exactly myself, and I’m trying to avoid spoilers so I was hoping you did. I don’t think that Robert would be involved in the planning past yelling “she dies!” Varys could have said whatever he wanted to his contacts, IMO, and what Varys wants might not be in line with what Robert wanted. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/151 "2011-06-01T01:54:52Z")
Did the wine merchant/poisoner not have a description of Dany? I’ll watch again, but it seemed like he didn’t know who she was right away. Did he have a backup plan in case Dany didn’t come to his stall? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/152 "2011-06-01T01:58:21Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Did the wine merchant/poisoner not have a description of Dany? I’ll watch again, but it seemed like he didn’t know who she was right away. > > Did he have a backup plan in case Dany didn’t come to his stall? Well, I don’t think he was sent specifically, so his back up plan was probably to sell wine. It cost him probably $10 to poison some wine, and the possible rewards could be millions (using 2011 dollar equivalents). I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a dude to hear “Dany Targaryen is in Vaes Dothrak, if you kill her you’ll be rich” and then carry around a poison cask hoping to run into her. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/153 "2011-06-01T02:00:33Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > It’s still lucky. Being drunk in the woods is hardly a death sentence. I think this is an important point: luck (both good and ill) plays a major role in this series, just as it does in real life. Characters scheme and plot, but often their plans succeed or fail in part because of random chance. It’s not enough to be clever in Westeros; you have to be lucky as well. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/154 "2011-06-01T02:11:09Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > In the market with Dany, Ser Jorah steps away and is told by the boy that he’s been pardoned and can now go home. He looks thoughtful, then turns back and prevents the _khaleesi_’s poisoning. The poisoning was presumably an assassination attempt authorized by King Robert. I had the impression that Jorah could’ve chosen to let the poisoning take place, but had come to care for Dany and decided, on the spot, to prevent it. Is that right? I think an additional factor was that while Jorah had been working for his pardon against the Targaryans the death of Viserys removed the certainty that he was doing the right thing (making sure Viserys never took the throne). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/155 "2011-06-01T04:41:35Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > I think an additional factor was that while Jorah had been working for his pardon against the Targaryans the death of Viserys removed the certainty that he was doing the right thing (making sure Viserys never took the throne). Moreover, he had developed a high regard for Dany (as well as an erotic/romantic attraction to her) and might have decided that she’d be a better monarch of Westeros than Robert ever had been. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/156 "2011-06-01T04:46:26Z")
Interesting that Joffrey seems the worst possible candidate for the kinship, even among all the other bottom crawlers. I have to give credit to the kid acting that role. I really hate his guts, just as I’m supposed to. ` ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/157 "2011-06-01T04:51:29Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Did the wine merchant/poisoner not have a description of Dany? I’ll watch again, but it seemed like he didn’t know who she was right away. It could have been just an act, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/158 "2011-06-01T05:04:28Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Did the wine merchant/poisoner not have a description of Dany? I’ll watch again, but it seemed like he didn’t know who she was right away. Don’t want to confuse with one of the other silver-haired, purple eyed Dothaki princesses wandering around the market. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/159 "2011-06-01T06:56:36Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > It could have been just an act, of course. Yeah, I thought he pretended to not know who she was. I mean, she didn’t exactly blend into the crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825/160 "2011-06-01T07:13:46Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > What the in the hell is wrong with Ned? As he was talking to Cersei in the beginning I was yelling at my computer. Why?! Why are you giving that bitch the heads up? Are you stupid? Concidering what happened when Robert took the throne originally , I think that Ned wanted to make sure that nothing happened to these kids, Cersei did the numbers and rolled the dice. I think it was alluded to in a previous conversation with Ned and Cersei, that she remarks that he is just a soldier. Ned is stuck in his own way of thinking and projecting that onto others. Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/game-of-thrones-you-win-or-you-die-5-22-11-and-5-29-11/582825.md?page=9)