# Gamergate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 5, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596 "2014-09-05T17:43:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 28
### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/542 "2014-09-22T15:12:05Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Are you really being this argumentative? Do you not know what the ESA says about gaming’s demographics. It’s a total split down the middle. Men and women are equal players. Men likely spend more, but pretending that women don’t play games at all would be A) foolish for publishers and B) absolutely moronic for anyone else to claim.
We discussed this in the Games Room thread but just saying “half of game players are women” isn’t really appropriate in this regard. I won’t say that women playing Flash or Facebook or Mobile games “don’t count” in general but they really don’t count when you’re producing console or PC games. Then the number that matters is “how many women own consoles or gaming PCs?”
I suspect that the demographics for console/Gaming PC owners skews pretty heavily male. Those are the games we’re talking about though. No one’s making videos decrying the sexism in mobile platform gaming.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/543 "2014-09-22T15:19:33Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#):
>
> I can’t believe this has gone unaddressed for a page, beucause I think it speaks to **blindy’s** ability to separate truth from fiction. [Anders Behring Breivik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik) is a sick fuck of a racist mass murderer. [Anders Lystad Brevik](https://twitter.com/Norwigi) (note the different middle name and spelling of the last name) is a game designer and (as far as I’m aware) hasn’t killed anybody. But the narrative that a mass murderer would sign a letter to Zoe Quinn supporting her is too good to fact check. (Nevermind that it is neither to ZQ, nor does it support her specifically, as LHOD pointed out.) C’mon, **blindy**. Are you so divorced from reality that that didn’t tickle your spider sense even a little? I read the accusation, thought “that doesn’t seem right,” and within 2 minutes of Googleing could say with confidence that they were not the same person. Maybe there are some legitimate complaints about the relationship between the gaming industry and the media that cover it, but the GG story is so full of either negligent reports (like calling a board game designer a mass murderer) or lies that if **blindy** told me the sky were blue, I’d have to go outside and look for myself before I believed him.
Good catch. I saw that, figured it was another one of the Gish Gallop lies, rolled my eyes, and ignored it.
Stayed tuned for **blindboy’s** next post, which will have another half dozen or so new false charges in it and fail to admit any of his myriad errors that have so far been pointed out.
---
### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/544 "2014-09-22T15:21:36Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> We discussed this in the Games Room thread but just saying “half of game players are women” isn’t really appropriate in this regard. I won’t say that women playing Flash or Facebook or Mobile games “don’t count” in general but they really don’t count when you’re producing console or PC games. Then the number that matters is “how many women own consoles or gaming PCs?”
I think that’s the wrong way to look at it because the development teams behind many of the biggest mobile/Facebook games are the same teams behind console/PC games. To a game publisher, they don’t care if women play on PC, console, of mobile. They’ve got development teams working on all of those platforms. So recognizing that women make up half of all gamers is very important to allocating developmental resources.
And look at the attendance of the various PAX shows. Women make up a growing proportion of the people on the show floor. I’m not sure it’s 50-50 yet, but it is VERY close. Publishers who ignore that do so at their own peril.
---
### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/545 "2014-09-22T15:27:35Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> I think that’s the wrong way to look at it because the development teams behind many of the biggest mobile/Facebook games are the same teams behind console/PC games.
Sure, but they’re producing two different kinds of games. Women own mobile devices so you make sure your mobile games appeal to them. Men own consoles/PCs so you try and make those games appeal to them. It’s not “ignoring women” because they’re making games attractive to women on the gaming devices women own. If more women owned consoles, making games appealing to women on consoles would be a greater priority but it’s not the developer’s job to try and make women buy $400 consoles so they can play their game.
---
### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/546 "2014-09-22T15:47:14Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> Sure, but they’re producing two different kinds of games. Women own mobile devices so you make sure your mobile games appeal to them. Men own consoles/PCs so you try and make those games appeal to them. It’s not “ignoring women” because they’re making games attractive to women on the gaming devices women own. If more women owned consoles, making games appealing to women on consoles would be a greater priority but it’s not the developer’s job to try and make women buy $400 consoles so they can play their game.
Right, but gamemakers (like Ubisoft and the Assassin’s Creed Unity fiasco) shouldn’t go out of their way to produce games that alienate women either. They are not a “zero percent” part of the industry. And games like Mario and LittleBigPlanet and (believe it or not) Borderlands really appeal to women.
---
### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/547 "2014-09-22T15:50:56Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#):
>
> Borderlands really appeal to women.
Well, sure… it’s got that Girlfriend Mode DLC (I kid!)
I’m certainly not advocating going out of your way to alienate women gamers when designing console games or implying that developers never make just plain stupid or sexist decisions. I’m just saying that “50% of gamers are women” isn’t a particularly useful statistic when discussing Lollipop Chainsaw.
---
### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/548 "2014-09-22T16:03:16Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#):
>
> I can’t believe this has gone unaddressed for a page, beucause I think it speaks to **blindy’s** ability to separate truth from fiction. [Anders Behring Breivik](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik) is a sick fuck of a racist mass murderer. [Anders Lystad Brevik](https://twitter.com/Norwigi) (note the different middle name and spelling of the last name) is a game designer and (as far as I’m aware) hasn’t killed anybody. But the narrative that a mass murderer would sign a letter to Zoe Quinn supporting her is too good to fact check.
Only an SJW would bother to research _facts_, buddy.
---
### Author:  [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/549 "2014-09-22T16:09:32Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> The funny thing is that they are so scared of SJWs, when what they did was really just SJWism. Quinn was a social evil they needed to correct.
No, that’s wrong. When those \*other \*people do it they’ve evil SJWs. When \*they \*do it, they’re brave warriors fighting for justice using social media. Completely different.
---
### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/550 "2014-09-22T17:24:31Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> I’m certainly not advocating going out of your way to alienate women gamers when designing console games or implying that developers never make just plain stupid or sexist decisions. I’m just saying that “50% of gamers are women” isn’t a particularly useful statistic when discussing Lollipop Chainsaw.
My wife thought Lollipop Chainsaw was hilarious. She’s not a big gamer, but she appreciated the over-the-top satire.
---
### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/551 "2014-09-22T18:22:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> You don’t think it was a motivating factor? I don’t give a shit about Quinn’s actions with her boyfriend, but the stuff that went down between her and TFYC got me involved in the issue. I think for a lot of them it was similar.
No. You have already stated you don’t hate Zoe Quinn. We are specifically talking about the people who funded TFYC because they hated Quinn. You’ve already agreed with me that that was the primary reason 4chan was able to raise the money.
The hatred started well before anything with TFYC. I don’t think anyone would have bought their transparent attempt to ride the Gamergate wagon if not for the misogyny.
I’ve also learned from reading TFYC’s tumblr that [they don’t actually think she did it out of some desire to harm them](http://thefineyoungcapitalists.tumblr.com/post/96578864050/on-apologizing-for-getting-punched-in-the-face), either. They think she misunderstood the project, said some stuff, but that her “followers” did most of it. Also, she didn’t in any way destroy the company. They lost a supporter and some money, but the TFYC was still fine.
> [@](#):
>
> Wait, what? [Vivian James]'s almost defined by her “just being another girl”. I mean, obviously if you start from the assumption that 4chan is doing this _purely to spite feminists_, then they could have made a version of Andrea Dworkin who cures cancer and solves world hunger by solving gender inequality and the character would still be seen as sexist.
It’s not an assumption I’m making. It’s something they’ve said, and how she is currently being used. [She was specifically created to “troll the feminists.”](http://i.imgur.com/FdqKFwu.jpg) And she is mostly being used to back up the #Gamergate subculture that is antifeminism.
You also are ignoring her personality. She:
[ul][li]Tough loves video games[/li][li]loathes dishonesty and hypocrisy[/li][li]low affect, grumpy, perpetually fed up and tired[/li][/ul]
And that’s the ordinary female gamer. I’m not sure what the first one means, and the second one sounds nice, but look at that third one. She’s a depressed girl who acts like an asshole. Are you starting to understand the misogyny? The typical female gamer has to be a horrible person.
> [@](#):
>
> Vivian James as a character is a quintessential gamer girl. A decent person not looking to be a role model who happens to be into hardcore gaming. The only thing “misogynist” about this is _where it came from_. Calling VJ “misogynist” is like calling “The Courtyard of the Old Residency in Munich” racist because the artist was Hitler. Also, who other than Vice has called her out as sexist? Because I looked and I’m not seeing a whole lot.
I don’t know where the stuff I read went, but it was pretty bad. But I think I’ve done a pretty good job above explaining why I think she is anti-feminist and misogynist.
But, also, when it comes to a mascot (and it is a mascot since VJ is used on all TFYC videos), your history is extremely important. Where she comes from is important. Vivian James is inextricably tied to #Gamergate. She has a ton of baggage.
> [@](#):
>
> What does it even mean to say that they “got in bed with them”? They didn’t turn away their donation? Let me make something clear. If I was running a program to help black people, and got a huge donation from Stormfront, I’d be suspicious, but if I thought they were terrible people, the _last_ thing I’d do is _give them their money back_. What does that accomplish? Now my program to help minorities is poorer and the people who want to demolish minorities are richer. What the hell does it accomplish? “You’re awful people, so we won’t take your money” seems kinda dumb. Never mind that we have no way of saying for what reason which people who donated did what they did!
Well, I disagree with you. But there’s no point in quibbling on that, because TFYC is not only taking their money. They are directly supporting them. And not just in using VJ. The TFYC are outspoken supporters of 4chan in general and /v/ specifically. They are only now realizing that they have to shed all of Gamgergate, and are even making nice with Zoe Quinn. Because THAT’S WHAT YOU DO if you want to distance yourself from something.
That’s the reason I don’t support Gamergate. They haven’t done so. And neither did /v/. They flat out said they were doing all this to troll.
> [@](#):
>
> Again, to clarify. The end result is that /v/ saved a female-oriented games design project and created a solid female character. At that point, I pretty much don’t care what the reasons were. The people getting upset about this are acting completely unreasonable.
No, the end result is they gave the company a little money. The project was not in any danger. That’s yet another thing I discovered on TFYC’s tumblr. They had a ton of money before all this.
But, even if you were right, I’m not an ends justify the means type of guy. Sorry.
And, now, to my chagrin, I have to be done with this. In researching all this crap, I had to encounter so much fricken hate that it made me sick. I did at one point want to believe that /v/ really did this to stick it to the misogynists that created Zoegate. But you, BPC, seem to be the only one supporting it that isn’t full of hate.
I’d love to believe there were more people like you on this, but my experience is otherwise. Too much freaking hate.
So I’ve made my last case. If you pick it apart, you pick it apart. But it is exactly what has led to my conclusions about this whole thing. I can only hope that [this article](http://kittenofdiscord.blogspot.com/2014/09/vivian-james-and-4chan.html) is right about what happens to Vivian James. Then maybe I can look past her #Gamergate roots.
Because, believe it or not, I used to think more highly of 4chan, even if it’s not for me. Maybe with #Gamergate being kicked off, it can be better again.
---
### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/552 "2014-09-22T18:40:58Z")
Also, sorry if some of the above is a bit hard to follow. Stuff was written at different times. I just realized that I seem to contradict myself when I say TFYC are keeping VJ but shedding Gamergate, when I also argue that VJ is inextricably connected to Gamergate.
Well, what they are doing is trying to divorce themselves from Zoegate, while still supporting /v/ and 4chan. They are also distancing themsevles from the current Gamergate movement, which is really full of hate and conspiracy nuttery and misogyny and just plain stupidity–all of which you guys know from certain posters here (though it gets much, much worse.)
Honestly, I probably should have left that part out.
---
### Author:  [@Neo-Calredic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neo-Calredic)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/553 "2014-09-22T19:00:46Z")
> [@bosbfdsfd](#):
>
> Sure there is, and now untold tens of thousands are as well, despite her desperate, hysterical subject-changing 🙂
Thankfully, no one who actually matters cares what you idiots think. You had your time in the spotlight, and all you managed to accomplish with it was showing anyone with a shred of decency how little you deserve to be listened to. Please slink back to your echo chambers on 4chan and stop sullying the term “gamer” by association.
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/554 "2014-09-22T20:36:07Z")
As you said you were done, I’m just going to address a handful of things.
> [@BigT](#):
>
> It’s not an assumption I’m making. It’s something they’ve said, and how she is currently being used. [She was specifically created to “troll the feminists.”](http://i.imgur.com/FdqKFwu.jpg)
See, this comes back to the main issue. One guy said “hey, wouldn’t it be funny to troll these guys by making a real character rather than a LOLWTF freakout?”. This is then taken as admission that the character exists solely to troll? Even taken at face value it doesn’t necessarily mean “the purpose of the character is to piss people off”. It could easily mean “hey, let’s surprise them by not fitting their stereotype of us”. Trolling is a very broad term that’s often assumed in the nastiest way. But even then, why take it at face value? It’s one random dude on /v/.
> [@](#):
>
> And she is mostly being used to back up the #Gamergate subculture that is antifeminism.
>
> You also are ignoring her personality. She:
> [ul][li]Tough loves video games[/li][li]loathes dishonesty and hypocrisy[/li][li]low affect, grumpy, perpetually fed up and tired[/li][/ul]
>
> And that’s the ordinary female gamer. I’m not sure what the first one means, and the second one sounds nice, but look at that third one. She’s a depressed girl who acts like an asshole. Are you starting to understand the misogyny? The typical female gamer has to be a horrible person.
Maybe you’re missing something about /v/ - “low affect, grumpy, perpetually fed up and tired” defines _most of the forum_. This isn’t a criticism of female gamers - this is self-impression, and to whatever degree self-critique. They’re not saying “Girl gamers are bad people” (indeed, I hardly think being low-affect, grumpy, or perpetually fed-up qualifies as “horrible person”). They’re saying “this is us”.
> [@](#):
>
> And, now, to my chagrin, I have to be done with this. In researching all this crap, I had to encounter so much fricken hate that it made me sick. I did at one point want to believe that /v/ really did this to stick it to the misogynists that created Zoegate. But you, BPC, seem to be the only one supporting it that isn’t full of hate.
Thank you for recognizing that, but I’ve seen quite a few people, including game developers, who are coming at this not from a position of hate but rather out of worries about the industry. Indeed, a lot of them are trying to get the more hateful members to step out and shut up.
---
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [September 22, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/555 "2014-09-22T23:19:11Z")
I like Vivian James. Her creation reminds me a bit of how you get a 3 yr-old to put on their shoes by betting them they can’t. 4-chan decide to behave like decent human beings for the shock value. I’d better pretend to be horrified and outraged just so they keep doing it.
Her being grumpy and fed-up is not misogynist. I like it. She doesn’t have to smile all the time, make everyone feel good, be nice and sweet. As Big T’s article says, it’s usually only men who get to behave like that.
If she does become some kind of gamer icon, in 2 years time, no one will care that she came from 4-chan. “She’s actually a very misogynist character because of some internet drama, umm I don’t remember the details, it was all very confusing”. Pfft, who cares.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/556 "2014-09-23T00:22:59Z")
So a bunch of dudes, in the middle of emailing death threats to a woman and calling her dad to tell him his daughter is a whore, in the middle of declaring her a fake feminist because she sexes people who aren’t them (or something, their argument isn’t entirely clear), decide to show women what a REAL feminist gamer is by creating a fictional one.
I don’t think it’d be possible for this to be a clearer example of mansplaining.
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/557 "2014-09-23T00:36:54Z")
I’m not sure of the term to best describe Vivian James - ‘Straw Ally’ seems the closest I can come up with.
---
### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/558 "2014-09-23T00:44:30Z")
Ooo, I like that.
---
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/559 "2014-09-23T01:00:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> So a bunch of dudes, in the middle of emailing death threats to a woman and calling her dad to tell him his daughter is a whore, in the middle of declaring her a fake feminist because she sexes people who aren’t them (or something, their argument isn’t entirely clear), decide to show women what a REAL feminist gamer is by creating a fictional one.
>
> I don’t think it’d be possible for this to be a clearer example of **mansplaining**.
Did you mean me? I’m female (and a gamer).
I know 4-chan are misogynist assholes and the bullying, threats, harassment are wrong, unjustified and unwarranted. I just quite like Vivian James, on several levels.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2014, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/560 "2014-09-23T01:29:09Z")
> [@Weedy](#):
>
> Did you mean me? I’m female (and a gamer).
>
> I know 4-chan are misogynist assholes and the bullying, threats, harassment are wrong, unjustified and unwarranted. I just quite like Vivian James, on several levels.
No, I didn’t mean you (although the temptation to explain to you that you’re the problem is almost irresistible–I love me some multilayer irony). You’re not the problem, IMO :). And stripped of everything else, I haven’t seen things about Vivian James that make me think in isolation the character is bad.
I was just talking about the character’s development, and its use by 4chan and MRA creeps to show women what a real feminist looks like, unlike those whores who spend their time making feminist critiques of games.
---
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/561 "2014-09-23T13:23:28Z")
No worries, LHOD. I mostly agree with you anyway.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596.md?page=27)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596.md?page=29)