# Gamergate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 5, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596 "2014-09-05T17:43:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 45
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/882 "2014-10-16T00:48:46Z")
> [@Weedy](#):
>
> Sure, but that is beside my point, which is that verbal abusiveness is a signal of masculinity in some sections of online culture, including a lot of gamer culture.
Well…yeah. And?
Look, men have certain cultural quirks and men have certain cultural quirks. Some are good, some are bad, some are indifferent.
Is the men’s way worse than the women’s way? I really don’t know. I think both have their advantages and disadvantages.
That women feel left out in gaming is due to it being dominated by men. If it were the other way around and women dominated gaming men would probably be griping.
Could people be better to each other? Sure! Just saying the status quo is not really surprising.
> [@](#):
>
> If chauvinist is the word you are happy with, I can go with that.
It’s not about what I am happy with. It is about definitions. Labeling your opponent in a particular way is as old as it comes. For instance in the abortion debate we have pro-life and pro-choice but if you ask a given group they will refer to the other side as anti-choice or pro-abortion. The use of “misogynist” is even further off base. Don’t take my word for it…go look it up.
If you want to use “misogynist” as loosely as it is here then are you ok if we use “misandrist” as casually?
> [@](#):
>
> I haven’t watched any of Sarkeesian’s videos (I’m not big on videos, I’d rather read an article) so I don’t know. My impression is she is not misandrist but there are specific things she doesn’t like men, or game developers, (or internet trolls, I guess) doing. When gamers are chauvinist towards me, it’s not usually something I did that upset them - they just don’t want me there, or hit on me, or whatever, just because I am female.
I am pretty sure Sarkeesian and Quinn are not misandrists but this circles back to my previous point.
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/883 "2014-10-16T00:55:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Actually, that’s **male** chauvinism specifically. In its original sense the word refers to **national** chauvinism (sense of superiority of one’s nation over all other nations), after the possibly apocryphal French hypernationalist [Nicolas Chauvin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Chauvin). American feminists appropriated the word in the 1970s to refer to male sexists.
Sure but I’d wager using it today to mean nationalistic chauvinism is rare.
Be that as it may the Oxford English Dictionary references male chauvinism specifically.
See: [Oxford English Dictionary](http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/244003#eid12568234)
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/884 "2014-10-16T00:56:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> Well…yeah. And?
>
> Look, men have certain cultural quirks and men have certain cultural quirks.
:smack:
Should read:
“Look, men have certain cultural quirks and women have certain cultural quirks.”
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/885 "2014-10-16T00:58:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> :smack:
>
> Should read:
> “Look, men have certain cultural quirks and women have certain cultural quirks.”
No, no, no. Men have certain cultural quirks. Women are just being bitches. 😉
---
### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/886 "2014-10-16T01:46:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> oblivious cowardly dishonest disingenuous creepy misogynistic
There you are, ladies and gentlemen. The reasoned voice of feminism when someone posts a link they don’t like.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/887 "2014-10-16T01:56:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> The use of “misogynist” is even further off base.
What part of _"vile, misandrist harpies who seek to destroy them_ [i.e., men]" and _“craven little whore”_ and _“feminist lies and poison”_ and _“feminists have ruined my life”_ and _"I’m going to make sure they_ [i.e., feminists] _die"_ do you consider non-misogynist?
And that language, as **Bouncer** noted, is “dry and almost clinical” compared to the “I’M GONNA RAPE THOSE UGLY BITCHCUNTS IN THE ASS AND MAKE THEM BLEED” style preferred by lots of the self-styled “Gamergate” commenters for expressing their criticism of women voicing opinions they don’t like.
The chosen language of many, many of the most vocal “Gamergaters” is not just “male chauvinist” or “sexist”, not just “aggressive”, not just a male “cultural quirk”. It is specifically meant to convey violent and intimidating hostility towards women **as women** for not “knowing their place” or “invading men’s territory” or daring to criticize them or have sex with men who aren’t them. Even though most misogynists try to fig-leaf their bias by tacking the label “feminist” onto the targets of their hate-filled sadistic fantasies, this is fundamentally not an issue of ideological disagreement. It’s basically anti-woman hatred. It’s misogyny.
**And it’s asymmetrical.** There are not large numbers of women on the internet furiously denigrating and raging against men with fantasies of subjecting them to violent degrading forms of physical abuse. Not even against “anti-feminist” men in particular.
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/888 "2014-10-16T02:17:04Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> There you are, ladies and gentlemen. The reasoned voice of feminism when someone posts a link they don’t like.
…what a load of nonsense. You posted a link that supported everything we have said and backed up our assertions, not yours. I’m perfectly happy with your link. Don’t make this a battle against feminism because it isn’t and if you think it is, you have indeed drunk a bit too much of that gamergate cool-aid.
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/889 "2014-10-16T02:28:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> **And it’s asymmetrical.** There are not large numbers of women on the internet furiously denigrating and raging against men with fantasies of subjecting them to violent degrading forms of physical abuse. Not even against “anti-feminist” men in particular.
Yeah, I like to rail on the super extreme stupid side of feminism, but it’s nowhere near as systemic or pervasive as this crap. Even on Tumblr, which is often considered a haven of crazy SJW nonsense.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/890 "2014-10-16T02:35:46Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> > [@BrainGlutton](#):
> >
> > oblivious cowardly dishonest disingenuous creepy misogynistic
>
> There you are, ladies and gentlemen. The reasoned voice of feminism when someone posts a link they don’t like.
It’s not your “posting a link they don’t like” that other posters are objecting to. (Which suggests that **BrainGlutton** may be right about the “dishonest” and “disingenuous” bit.)
Personally, this is the bit that I think is really showing who you are:
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> This thread has shown me that a lot of gamers can be total assholes but I already knew that. It’s also illustrated that a lot of “feminists” aren’t worth discussing it with […] which is a little more depressing than the gamer thing in a lot of ways.
Uh-huh. The fact that some “feminists” disagree with you on some issues that you’re sure you’re right about is “more depressing” than the fact that large numbers of gamers break down into slavering violent threats and obscene abuse when a woman makes some remarks about sexism. Right.
It’s not that I believe everybody needs to agree with feminists about everything all the time. It’s that trying to dismiss the Gamergate stuff in this way as a “both sides do it” situation, as if the behavior of the feminists and the anti-feminists were somehow comparable (or even that the behavior of the feminists is **more** deplorable or “depressing” than that of the anti-feminists), is so distorting and deceptive that it really calls your position into question.
---
### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/891 "2014-10-16T02:53:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Uh-huh. The fact that some “feminists” disagree with you on some issues that you’re sure you’re right about is “more depressing” than the fact that large numbers of gamers break down into slavering violent threats and obscene abuse when a woman makes some remarks about sexism.
As I said, “…in a lot of ways”.
I expect (this does not mean condone) trollish, moronic or even criminal behavior from 4chan and the like. I expected _better_ than the fanatical devotion to a single track of thought that I’ve seen illustrated here.
Yeah, that was depressing. The last couple pages have pretty much backed up that discovery which is a shame but I don’t expect any minds to change as a result.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/892 "2014-10-16T03:12:47Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> I expect (this does not mean condone) trollish, moronic or even criminal behavior from 4chan and the like. I expected _better_ than the fanatical devotion to a single track of thought that I’ve seen illustrated here.
One of those characterizations is factually accurate and the other is hyperbole.
Yes, many viciously misogynist gamers are indeed exhibiting “trollish, moronic or even criminal behavior” with regard to Gamergate.
No, posters here are not exhibiting “fanatical devotion to a single track of thought”. Even if you disagree with them about some things, even if you think their opinions are wrong and their arguments poor, “fanatical devotion to a single track of thought” is not an accurate way to describe what they’re doing.
Again, the problem is not that you disagree with some feminists about some things. The problem is that you are so ready to distort and misrepresent the description of what feminists are saying while downplaying or shrugging off the description of what anti-feminists are saying.
---
### Author:  [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/893 "2014-10-16T03:20:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> One of those characterizations is factually accurate and the other is hyperbole.
You’re welcome to think so. Of course, no one is accusing you of being a… hang on, let me get the list… oblivious cowardly dishonest disingenuous creepy misogynistic pathetic passive aggressive gamergate apologist.
But I think we’ve drawn all the water there is from this particular well. You have your opinions about me from this thread and I’ve learned what I have about feminism from this thread. No reason to keep going around in circles saying “Nuh uh, you’re wrong”.
---
### Author:  [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/894 "2014-10-16T03:23:02Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> Please don’t insult our intelligence or your’s by trying to say you weren’t trying to imply that Sarkeesian was behind this.
I wasn’t trying to imply that. If I gave that impression to you or anyone I apologize.
> [@](#):
>
> That said, yeah I’ll agree that it’s a hoax in the sense that I serious doubt the guy was serious. If he had been, he’d just do it, he wouldn’t send a letter claiming to do it.
Mmm… Here we part ways. If someone is going to send a threat, my expectation is that that threatening note/letter/email is going to contain elements of anger in the phrasing and terminology used. This letter is very sterile, which is kinda my point. I’m also going to expect it’d be sent (or at least cc’d) to the target, but this one wasn’t. Finally, I’d expect it to be sent to the authorities such as the campus police or Deans office, but again, it wasn’t. That does strike me as odd. It will always strike me as odd, and I’m just being honest about that. But hell, nutty people do nutty things.
> [@](#):
>
> I can’t remember who it was who said, “I’m not afraid of the nuts who send threatening letters. I’m afraid of the ones who don’t.”
Dunno, but it’s probably the motto of the Secret Service (or should be). 🙂
> [@](#):
>
> As for the idea that he’s “highly educated”, what’s the surprise? He claims he’s a student there. I’m also not sure what odd about the idea of a student at the U(if his letter is genuine) having access to the e-mail addresses of university members associated with the talk?
My read is that this is someone with a post secondary level of education. The language and diction are very precise. Granted, it’s opinion. But I don’t see this as some gamer sophomore. Or a junior. Maybe a senior but honestly, I think it’s someone with a lot of writing skill who is past college. Again, opinion. Nothing to back it up, but consider this. There’s no crudity or abusiveness in the text with the exception of one instance of three words. Whether or not the threatmaker was serious about following through, you have to have a lot of anger if you are in that mindset, and your writing will reflect that. Even Marc Lépine’s suicide note held that element of anger and resentment. You can sense it. I don’t “hear” it in this text. It’s like there’s an emotional void. It’s very calm, it’s very precise, and according to recent reading on this subject, that’s simply not the way this shit works. According to the expert types (Secret Service, ATFE etc) you are either a howler or a hunter. You either express rage via the threat, or you do not express the rage and you do actually act on it. Yet here we have a threat with no rage expression. Complete emotional detachment.
I’d love to be a fly on the wall at any FBI linguistics forensics of this note. I think it’d be fascinating to see what kind of profile they’d build and how close they’d be to whoever actually wrote it. 🙂
I’d also be all curious to see the email headers and other technical information to see if the note could be tracked back, and if so, how far. Lots of people are reasonably technically savvy, but not as many are able to truly obscure their location. But even the attempt to obscure gives up source and methodology information which could be used to aid in creating a profile of the individual. It’s all rather interesting to me. And no, I really don’t think Sarkeesian wrote the note.
Cite for the bit about howlers and hunters: [Bombers or Bomb Threat Makers? | Psychology Today](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-act-violence/201304/bombers-or-bomb-threat-makers)
I do hope they actually catch the individual and that they prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. If you don’t like Sarkeesian, then simply don’t tune into her youtube channel or attend her speaking engagements. /shrug
Regards,
-Bouncer-
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/895 "2014-10-16T03:53:45Z")
> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> You’re welcome to think so. Of course, no one is accusing you of being a… hang on, let me get the list… oblivious cowardly dishonest disingenuous creepy misogynistic pathetic passive aggressive gamergate apologist.
Insulting somebody (especially if you started out insulting him more moderately and he basically dared you to insult him some more) is not exhibiting “fanatical devotion to a single track of thought”.
Even if the insult is severe or exaggerated or disputable, it’s not exhibiting “fanatical devotion to a single track of thought”.
The problem is that you’re deliberately distorting perspective here to pretend there’s some kind of parity between two massively different types of behavior.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/896 "2014-10-16T04:01:42Z")
> [@Bouncer](#):
>
> I’d love to be a fly on the wall at any FBI linguistics forensics of this note. I think it’d be fascinating to see what kind of profile they’d build and how close they’d be to whoever actually wrote it. 🙂
A kind of amateur-division first-approximation attempt at such a “profile” has been discussed in [a blog post over at “We Hunted the Mammoth”](http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/10/15/the-threats-that-shut-down-anita-sarkeesians-talk-come-from-someone-who-seems-to-be-deeply-steeped-in-the-misogynstic-mens-rights-subculture/#more-13809):
> [@](#):
>
> I found myself wondering, a bit dumbfounded: just where does this kind of hate come from? […]
>
> And so, as a kind of preliminary step towards finding an answer to this question, I thought I would ask a simpler and more empirical question: where does the language of hatred found in the threatening email sent to Utah State officials come from?
>
> It’s easy enough to see where it comes from in a general sense: the author of the email repeats a lot of the standard language of the new misogynists online, castigating “misandrist harpies” and railing against the alleged evils of feminism. But it’s only when you begin looking at the specific and sometimes peculiar phrasings in the email that you really begin to see just how familiar the author is with the misogynist tropes of the manosphere, broadly defined. […]
>
> […] quite a few of them are phrases that are used almost nowhere else but in the misogynistic subcultures I write about on this blog – specifically, in the Men’s Rights and “Game” subcultures. This is someone, like Elliot Rodger before him, who has been reading if not actively participating in these subcultures. […]
>
> Some of the specific phrasings he uses seem to be almost exclusively used by MRAs. He writes, for example, of the “toxic influence of feminism,” a phrase that only turns up 47 results on Google. […] virtually the only time this phrase seems to have been used in the history of humankind – or at least that portion of history accessible to Google – it’s been used by MRAs and video gamers. Mostly MRAs. […]
>
> Other phrases the email author uses aren’t quite as unique, but they too seem to be used almost exclusively by Men’s Rightsers […] “Misandrist harpies” is a surprisingly common phrase amongst angry MRAs and other manospherians […]
>
> The author of the threatening email also refers at one point to feminist “poison.” […] MRAs and PUAs are similarly obsessed with the notion of feminism as a cultural poison. You can find dire warnings about “feminist poison” on in the posts and comments on sites ranging from A Voice for Men to Exposing Feminism to [Antimisandry.com](http://Antimisandry.com).
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/897 "2014-10-16T04:06:59Z")
> [@Bouncer](#):
>
> It’s also weird to me that the only bad thing they say about Sarkeesian specifically is to call her a “craven little whore” near the end. You’d expect more bile, more anger, more something. […]
>
> Yet here we have a threat with no rage expression. Complete emotional detachment.
Really? How are phrases like “Anita Sarkeesian is everything wrong with the feminist woman, and she is going to die screaming like the craven little whore that she is” or “I will write my manifesto in her spilled blood” striking you as “emotionally detached” or free of “bile” or “anger” or “rage”?
That is not what “complete emotional detachment” sounds like.
---
### Author:  [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/898 "2014-10-16T04:17:47Z")
Kimstu,
Fascinating (and disturbing). Thank you for that link. I mean that sincerely, no snark.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/899 "2014-10-16T04:29:50Z")
> [@Bouncer](#):
>
> Kimstu,
>
> Fascinating (and disturbing). Thank you for that link. I mean that sincerely, no snark.
>
> Regards,
> -Bouncer-
You’re welcome, and no snark was detected!
I came in to point out what I failed to notice on first reading that cite, namely the possibly confusing use of the term “‘Game’ subculture”. AFAICT, that refers to the notion of “Game” or the seduction/harassment techniques favored by self-identified Pick-Up Artists, not “gamer” as in video games.
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/900 "2014-10-16T04:46:33Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> You’re welcome, and no snark was detected!
>
> I came in to point out what I failed to notice on first reading that cite, namely the possibly confusing use of the term “‘Game’ subculture”. AFAICT, that refers to the notion of “Game” or the seduction/harassment techniques favored by self-identified Pick-Up Artists, not “gamer” as in video games.
Yeah, I think that’s what they meant.
The funniest thing is that MRAs and PUAs really hate each other. (There are reasons for this, but it ruins the magic to explain them)
---
### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/901 "2014-10-16T04:51:41Z")
More updates:
NYT article about the current state of events, the growing violence inherent in the #gamergate fans, and the growing pushback against them.
> **[Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html)**
>
> The atmosphere has become so toxic that critics and developers are urging big companies in the $70-billion-a-year video game industry to do more to stop it.
Tycho (Jerry Holkins) from Penny Arcade weighed in today too, claiming that there might be reasonable discussions to be had about the state of Games Journalism - but the discussions aren’t ever going to happen because of the ongoing vileness and death threats. Once you play the Bomb Threat card, the discussion is over and you just lost.
> **[Star Gourds - Penny Arcade](https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/10/15/star-gourds)**
>
> Videogaming-related online strip by Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins. Includes news and commentary.
Also, this Tweet about the journalistic problems with #gamergate will pass into legend because Neil Gaimon, Joss Whedon and their combined fan bases all got whooshed.
[Should women be allowed to create and play video games without fear of being murdered in real life? Let’s hear both sides of the story.](https://twitter.com/Hello_Tailor/status/522223367072780288)
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596.md?page=44)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596.md?page=46)