# Gamergate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 5, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596 "2014-09-05T17:43:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 46
### Author:  [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/902 "2014-10-16T04:54:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Really? How are phrases like “Anita Sarkeesian is everything wrong with the feminist woman, and she is going to die screaming like the craven little whore that she is” or “I will write my manifesto in her spilled blood” striking you as “emotionally detached” or free of “bile” or “anger” or “rage”?
>
> That is not what “complete emotional detachment” sounds like.
I dunno, in the larger context of the threat text en toto, it just feels out of place (to me). There’s basically nothing in any of the other paragraphs that builds up to these statements or expresses any significant anger. Yes there are some generic threat statements, but they seem to have less passion behind them than a weather report.
I guess I expect to see anger permeate the threat text from beginning to end, and I don’t, really. I’m not trying to minimize it. What I’m saying is that if I have some crazy angry person painting a canvas, I’d expect to see that anger expressed all over the canvas, heavy fast strokes, bad colors all over the place etc. Not a very neat and orderly painting with only one defined area all crazy. /shrug
Your Mileage May Vary. In any case, I think we both agree the FBI needs to aggressively pursue the threat author and hold them fully accountable. The whole point of free speech is (of course) to protect the expression of views we disagree with. I think it’s fair to say we both agree on that, too.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
---
### Author:  [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/903 "2014-10-16T05:08:18Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> Yeah, I think that’s what they meant.
>
> The funniest thing is that MRAs and PUAs really hate each other. (There are reasons for this, but it ruins the magic to explain them)
Sigh… so now I have learned what these two acronyms stand for and a cliffs notes version of their views (I’d heard a little about MRAs but PUA was brand new to me). Somehow this particular knowledge is making me feel dumbererer, not smarter. 😕
Anywhoo it’s late and I have an early morning. Thanks for the ignorance fought about that topic. I guess. Kinda. :dubious:
Regards,
-Bouncer-
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/904 "2014-10-16T06:12:15Z")
> [@Bouncer](#):
>
> Sigh… so now I have learned what these two acronyms stand for and a cliffs notes version of their views (I’d heard a little about MRAs but PUA was brand new to me). Somehow this particular knowledge is making me feel dumbererer, not smarter. 😕
What’s especially sad about the whole “Men’s Rights Activism” phenomenon, if you ask me, is that buried deep inside their massive festering pustulent goiter of sexist self-pitying resentful misogynistic entitlement there’s a tiny kernel of a valid cause. There **are** aspects of modern society that are unfair to men, which many feminists both female and male need to attack more vigorously, e.g.:
**1) Violence against men not being taken seriously.** Whether it’s prison rape, or statutory rape by an older woman, or school bullying, or domestic violence at the hands of a female or male partner, a male victim is too often perceived as a punchline or a shameful failure rather than somebody who deserved protection and help.
**2) Patriarchal gender expectations obstructing or penalizing men in traditionally “female” roles.** A friend of mine was an SAHD at one point and when he took his infant daughter to a new parents’ playgroup there were people suspecting him of being a pedophile. Seriously. Yes, we all need to be vigilant about possible danger but that kind of bigotry is just unacceptable. And don’t get me started on what guys who like to knit have to put up with from asshole strangers if they, like me, choose to spend some leisure time doing needlework in public.
**3) “You’re a big strong man so I can…”** Hit you. Call on you for any physical task while women equally capable of performing it sit idle. Make offensive derogatory remarks about your gender “just as a joke”. Call on you for trivial “masculine” favors (tire changing, spider killing) instead of bothering to learn how to accomplish them oneself. (Full disclosure: I do sometimes seek help from nearby men to get lids off jars **BUT NEVER WITHOUT DOING MY BEST TO OPEN THEM MYSELF FIRST**.)
**4) Assuming men will be the ones to pay on dates.** Yes, when one person invites another to be their guest on an outing the inviter should be the one to pay, whatever the gender of the inviter or invitee. But the default “date” structure between two strangers or slight acquaintances should not be expected to mimic this. The default date structure should be “one of us suggests that we do something together and if the other likes the idea then we do it and we each pay our own way”. Yes, I know about men still having a sexism-influenced financial advantage on average and all the rest of it, but it doesn’t matter: feminists should not be expecting strangers to routinely provide financial support for their leisure and social activities just because the strangers are male.
Admittedly, most of these injustices are less oppressive than a lot of the gendered restrictions and hazards that women face, and many of them are even used to justify or perpetuate male privilege so it’s not like there’s no silver lining.
Nonetheless, ultimately they **are** unfair to men and feminists **should** (and I think most do) care about that unfairness.
But that is so not what most of the modern “Men’s Rights” movement is about.
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/905 "2014-10-16T06:19:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Make offensive derogatory remarks about your gender “just as a joke”.
Ugh, my mom’s family is like 5 sisters. Family gatherings turn into a nigh-perpetual stream of “jokingly bash the men in the family.” It’s really, really exhausting, even when you know they don’t mean it.
Yes, I get that women deal with stupid “har har har stay in the kitchen” jokes too, which is why I don’t make those jokes.
---
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/906 "2014-10-16T06:47:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> Well…yeah. And?
It’s sexist behaviour, towards both women and other men who don’t define their manliness that way.
Are you saying: “Well yeah, they are sexist arseholes, but not actually misogynist” like that makes it OK?
> [@](#):
>
> It’s not about what I am happy with. It is about definitions. Labeling your opponent in a particular way is as old as it comes. For instance in the abortion debate we have pro-life and pro-choice but if you ask a given group they will refer to the other side as anti-choice or pro-abortion. The use of “misogynist” is even further off base. Don’t take my word for it…go look it up.
>
> If you want to use “misogynist” as loosely as it is here then are you ok if we use “misandrist” as casually?
Well, ‘as casually’, sure. I think Anita Sarkeesian is quite a bit less ‘misandrist’ than gamers who refuse to party with females are ‘misogynist’.
Misogyny - hatred of women
Male chauvinism - seeing women as innately inferior (I got that from Free Dictionary. Your OED link didn’t work for me.)
Either one is a problem. If you want to spend your time arguing how #gamergate is not misogynist (because it’s actually chauvinistic), then that’s pretty lame.
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/907 "2014-10-16T07:27:58Z")
Male chauvanism/misogyny seems kind of like a distinction without a difference to me.
Okay, I can concoct a difference, but literally the only place it leads is the same place where ideas like “noble savage” or “but black men are just genetically really GOOD at picking cotton” come from. Which seems pretty damn close to “misogyny”. At the very least “sexism”.
---
### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/908 "2014-10-16T09:48:18Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> Male chauvanism/misogyny seems kind of like a distinction without a difference to me.
I can see a difference, if we go back to what chauvinism originally meant. It’s a kind of patriotism, celebrating your own. Male chauvinism would mean being proud to be a man and doing “manly” things.
I just don’t see what that has to do with any of the situations we are describing as misogyny.
---
### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/909 "2014-10-16T14:06:32Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> Male chauvanism/misogyny seems kind of like a distinction without a difference to me.
Exactly. Sort of like our resident racists/racialists/race realists?
“I’m not a racist, I’m a race realist”. There may be a distinction there if you pick those nits carefully, but why the fuck does it matter?
Does it really matter if these assholes are “technically” chauvinists, misogynists, or whatever the hell they want to call themselves? It’s a nearly meaningless semantic digression that doesn’t address the disgusting underlying attitudes these fuckwits have towards women.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/910 "2014-10-16T14:39:31Z")
I think there **is** a valid distinction to be drawn between “sexism” or “chauvinism” and “misogyny” in terms of the virulence and hostility involved. Saying _“Gosh, women are such lousy drivers”_ is sexist. Saying _“THOSE FUCKING SHITCUNT FEMALES DARING TO INVADE OUR ROADS AND PUT THE LIVES OF MEN IN DANGER WITH THEIR CHIMPANZEE-LIKE INCOMPETENCE AT MECHANICAL TASKS THEY ALL NEED A TIRE IRON SHOVED UP THEIR DISGUSTING TWATS”_ is misogynist.
Especially in the wake of crimes by literal misogynist terrorists like Marc Lepine and Elliott Rodger, and the admiration expressed for them by so many internet terrorist wannabes, I think it’s important not to gloss over that distinction. Sexism oppresses, but misogyny kills.
---
### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/911 "2014-10-16T17:56:06Z")
Maybe it’s a useful distinction on a semantic level. On a practical level, it’s a distinction without a difference.
Also, most misogynists are not raving axe murders. That doesn’t make their more subtle misogyny, acceptable.
```auto
So today's reading from the Washington Post (for those who asked me for links lo these many months ago.
[The only guide to Gamergate you will ever need to read](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/10/14/the-only-guide-to-gamergate-you-will-ever-need-to-read/)
An excellent overview that places Gamergate in the context of a larger cultural war against sexists and misogynists.
[quote]
**What is Gamergate?**
Whatever Gamergate may have started as, it is now an Internet culture war. On one side are independent game-makers and critics, many of them women, who advocate for greater inclusion in gaming. On the other side of the equation are a motley alliance of vitriolic naysayers: misogynists, anti-feminists, trolls, people convinced they’re being manipulated by a left-leaning and/or corrupt press, and traditionalists who just don’t want their games to change.
The divide is, in part, demographic: It’s the difference between the historical, stereotypical gamer — young, nerdy white guy who likes guns and boobs — and the much broader, more diverse range of people who play now.
[/quote]
This is notable, however, because it reinforces the stereotype that Leigh Alexander was trying to say was inaccurate and which Gaters have clung too, even though it's not flattering.
The Washington Post also has this current editorial -
[Which addresses the corrosive costs that non-raving misogyny places on everyone involved.
[quote]
Americans long ago decided that the preservation of our free speech rights was worth tolerating all sorts of terrible ways in which people use them. You can yell fire in a crowded theater so other people will be able to question the theater’s construction and the problems with the fire code that made it hard to evacuate the burning auditorium.
Even when we reaffirm these choices, it is worth tallying up what they have cost us. Over the past few months, the price has been discouragingly high.
[/quote]
Finally, Buzzfeed has an interview with the dipshit who called down this particular whirlwind, Eron Gjoni.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/the-man-who-sparked-gamergate-regrets-the-harassment-but-say#1qw48ct](] **What tolerating online harassment costs us** [/url)
[quote]
Asked what he would say to women who have been terrified by death threats and anonymous harassment, Gjoni said, “I can’t deny my letter was the spark. I guess I feel compelled to offer an apology to them. But also I don’t know how to do that without taking the responsibility away from people who are actually doing the harassment. But, I guess, let me know how I can make it up to you?”
[/quote]
Yeah, don't call us, dumbass. We'll call you.
```
---
### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/912 "2014-10-16T18:08:03Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> Yeah, don’t call us, dumbass. We’ll call you.
Homeboy’s a piece of fucking work, ain’t he? He can go ahead and fuck clean off now.
---
### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/913 "2014-10-16T18:22:03Z")
Yeah, in all this chaos of misogynist ranting about how teh wimmenz don’t have the requisite manliness for understanding or appreciating proper gaming, it’s kind of ironic that the whole thing was kicked off by a huge emotional TMI rant by some guy who was butthurt because his girlfriend cheated on him and then cut off contact with him after they broke up.
All the subsequent ideological posturing and professed concern about journalistic ethics is just marginally relevant window-dressing. The big issue here, the one that ultimately sparked off all the frothing-mouthed misogynistic hate, is just the fury and resentment vicariously felt by a bunch of insecure dickwads because an Evil Bitch™ done a Nice Guy™ wrong.
---
### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/914 "2014-10-16T18:57:20Z")
…I have to admit, this was pretty funny.
[[Album] #gamerfruit  ](https://imgur.com/a/YES23)
Brianna Wu accidentally tweeted a Fresh Produce Importer rather than a game development conference, and confusion and good humour result.
[https://twitter.com/diceeurope](https://twitter.com/diceeurope)
---
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/915 "2014-10-16T19:03:46Z")
[Brianne Wu describes the threats](http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/brianna-wu-gamergate), and notes how it has become the biggest nail in showing the world how gamergate is nothing but hate:
> [@](#):
>
> In part, because of the press campaign I’ve done in the last five days against Gamergate, the jig is up. The Entertainment Software Association, the largest trade group in our industry, denounced the movement. Vox ran an editorial about the pattern established with the threats against me, “Angry misogyny is now the primary face of #GamerGate.” And journalistic enterprises like Giant Bomb, which had sat on the sidelines, are finally discussing the issue.
I guess the gamergate whiners will still have Escapist’s skirts to hide under until the majority of their journalists/commentators get sick of that shit being int heir shadows.
---
### Author:  [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/916 "2014-10-16T22:02:00Z")
Crap - I buggered up the thread to the editorial I tried to link earlier. Here it is again:
**What tolerating online harassment costs us**
> **[What tolerating online harassment costs us](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2014/10/15/what-tolerating-online-harassment-costs-us/)**
>
> The harassment of prominent video game critics and producers, as well as ordinary citizens, exacts an extremely high toll in exchange for free speech.
**MEANWHILE**
Quinn filed for a restraining order against Eron Gjoni. It was granted for a full year today, according to various internet postings, like this one, from a Reddit site, Kotaku in Action. It includes a link to a photo of the order.
[http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2i50xp/i\_went\_to\_erons\_hearing\_on\_tuesday/](http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2i50xp/i_went_to_erons_hearing_on_tuesday/)
Gjoni is instructed to stay away from her, hand over his guns (I don’t know if he even has any, it’s just a box ticked off on the order) and, specifically, not to post "any further information about the Plaintiff (Quinn) or her personal life on line or to any [something illegible] “hate mobs”.
That instruction is handwritten by someone wearing oven mitts but the illegible word might be grassroots or gamergate. Or something. The hate mob part is obvious.
So that happened. Probably. In so far as it’s on Reddit (don’t read the comments).
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/917 "2014-10-16T23:09:20Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> Crap - I buggered up the thread to the editorial I tried to link earlier. Here it is again:
>
> **What tolerating online harassment costs us**
>
> [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2014/10/15/what-tolerating-online-harassment-costs-us/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2014/10/15/what-tolerating-online-harassment-costs-us/)
I really like this pre GamerGate article:
[Fighting Online Harassment](http://www.wired.com/2014/05/fighting-online-harassment/)
> [@](#):
>
> Too often, though, we talk about online abuse like we talk about bad weather: We shake our heads, shrug, and assume there’s nothing we can do. The behavior is so prevalent that it’s seen as an inextricable part of online culture. As a widely read article in January’s Pacific Standard noted, “Internet harassment is routinely dismissed as ‘harmless locker-room talk,’ perpetrators as ‘juvenile pranksters,’ and victims as ‘overly sensitive complainers.’” What else, in other words, would you expect from the Internet? But the Internet is now where we socialize, where we work. It’s where we meet our spouses, where we build our reputations. Online harassment isn’t just inconvenient, nor is it something we can walk away from with ease. It’s abhorrent behavior that has real social, professional, and economic costs.
>
> […]
>
> When people speak up about online harassment, one of the most common responses is “Well, what did you expect from the Internet?” If we truly want to change our online spaces, the answer from all of us has got to be: more.
---
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/918 "2014-10-16T23:27:58Z")
> [@Merneith](#):
>
> So today’s reading from the Washington Post (for those who asked me for links lo these many months ago.
>
> [The only guide to Gamergate you will ever need to read](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/10/14/the-only-guide-to-gamergate-you-will-ever-need-to-read/)
>
> An excellent overview that places Gamergate in the context of a larger cultural war against sexists and misogynists.
>
> This is notable, however, because it reinforces the stereotype that Leigh Alexander was trying to say was inaccurate and which Gaters have clung too, even though it’s not flattering.
Thanks for the links. What was it that Leigh Alexander said? Was that the “gamers are dead” thing?
---
### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/919 "2014-10-16T23:37:09Z")
> [@Weedy](#):
>
> Thanks for the links. What was it that Leigh Alexander said? Was that the “gamers are dead” thing?
> **[news](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/latest-news)**
>
> news
---
### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [October 16, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/920 "2014-10-16T23:51:03Z")
If you actually read Leigh Alexander’s essay, her point in saying “gamers are over” is that such broad variety of people are interested in video games that the people clinging to “gamer” as an identity and pitching a holy fit at the idea that they are no longer the sole arbiter of what is good on games no longer need to be kowtowed to by the industry.
In other words, we are all gamers now so if you are into games you no longer are justified in clinging to this group that has become a vehicle for hate and revenge.
And if you make and sell games there are a lot more people who want to give you their money, do you don’t have to coddle this identity group.
---
### Author:  [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)
#### Post date: [October 17, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/921 "2014-10-17T00:11:58Z")
Thanks, Jragon. What a tactless article.
I have been thinking about the conversation I was having with Whack-a-mole, and I feel like I wasn’t being totally fair. There was a game I played for a while, that I really liked, but maybe 30% of the players were absolute dicks that frequently harassed female players. When I think of ‘misogyny in gaming’ I think of them. But most games I have played online haven’t been nearly as bad as that. I don’t even know how to estimate, though, because being harassed at one point makes me much more sensitive to it. Things that didnt bother me before, do bother me now. It is unfair to label all gamers as misogynist cretins, though.
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