# Gamergate **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 5, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596 "2014-09-05T17:43:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1142 "2014-10-21T16:38:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It is astonishing yo me that you can read all this and still think this is literally about the word “gamer.” Then what are you babbling about? The gamer community has recognized all of the problems you list and has been working on them for a few years now. It’s getting there. It really is. Just look at the panels that are hosted at every gaming con (hint: Zoe Quinn made her name hosting similar panels). Jumping into this thread and acting like you’re telling all us poor nerds how it’s going to be from now on is moronic. There are no GamerGaters posting to this thread anymore. We know all this. We get it. And we’re the ones trying to change it. This goes to **even sven** too, while I’m at it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1143 "2014-10-21T16:43:40Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Exactly. “GamerGate” is unknown to most gamers. Instead, what most of them are hearing is that a bunch of psychotics leveled death threats against multiple developers and a critic. I’m curious about this. I’ve followed this story on many fronts that I look at because I’m a gamer, so I honestly don’t know what the average non-gamer’s impression of all this is. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1144 "2014-10-21T17:48:27Z")
Non-gamer nothing. My gaming friends barely know or pay attention to it. As far as most of them are concerned, if they know Anita Sarkeesian’s name, it’s from the kickstarter brouhaha from back before Feminist Frequency. And the rest of the players descend in notoriety from there. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1145 "2014-10-21T17:53:21Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Then what are you babbling about? What is it that you don’t understand? Did you actually think that the whole deal was a vocabulary dispute? > [@](#): > > The gamer community has recognized all of the problems you list and has been working on them for a few years now. It’s getting there. It really is. And that negates what exactly? It’s not Sarkeesian or Quinn or Anderson who blew this whole thing up. Are you asking why now? Maybe this is the point at which the Gamergater-types panic at the prospect of losing their perceived status. Are you asking why address this publicly instead of handled “within the family”? Maybe because the problems I enumerated above are reflective of larger societal problems. Maybe because they reflect a broader problem with Internet culture. Maybe because Gamergate is part of a broader culture war and is a component of a larger right-wing reactionary troll phenomenon in our society. RH Reality Check: “What #GamerGate and the Anti-Choice Movement Have in Common” — [What #GamerGate and the Anti-Choice Movement Have in Common](http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/10/20/gamergate-anti-choice-movement-common/#sthash.FMyO0sFQ.dpuf) > [@](#): > > Allaway used sociological research to show how #GamerGate works like a typical hate group. Similarly, Wagner explained that #GamerGate is driven by angry young white men who are threatened by demands that gaming be inclusive of women, people of color, and LGBTQ people, and who are lashing out in an attempt to keep the white male dominance they enjoy. In this, they are like every other reactionary movement … > [@](#): > > Just look at the panels that are hosted at every gaming con (hint: Zoe Quinn made her name hosting similar panels). And there has been a reactionary campaign objecting to the very existence of those discussions. > [@](#): > > Jumping into this thread and acting like you’re telling all us poor nerds how it’s going to be from now on is moronic. I have no idea idea whom you’re speaking to, speaking for, or speaking about when you say this. People jumped in to cry about Leigh Anderson and others’ use of phrases like “gamers are over” as if she literally was saying “no one plays video games any more” or “people will literally never use the word ‘gamer’ any more” and then labeling her an idiot. When people come into the thread to explain what shouldn’t really have needed explanation, the response was “but that’s not the literal definition of ‘gamer,’” as if they were unfamiliar with rhetoric. These reactions by people denying that they are Gamergaters duplicate the stupid word games and fallacious argumentation used by Gamergaters themselves. So, fine, you aren’t one of them. What’s your beef then? Why do you pick up the same silly quibbles they do? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1146 "2014-10-21T18:14:32Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m curious about this. I’ve followed this story on many fronts that I look at because I’m a gamer, so I honestly don’t know what the average non-gamer’s impression of all this is. I’ve been asking people outside the industry about it. Most people haven’t heard of it at all. The few who have say things like “Gamergate? Isn’t that about gamers sending death threats to women?” ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1147 "2014-10-21T18:14:51Z")
Ascenray, one thing – it’s Leigh **Alexander**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1148 "2014-10-21T18:17:55Z")
Ugh. I’ve been alternating those names for weeks now. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1149 "2014-10-21T18:29:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > A very small number of movies are made by the big industry players for movie buffs. The industry cares more about the segment whose identity is not tied up in the medium because there’s more money there. That’s the change that’s coming to video games and that’s what “gamers are over” means. Perhaps a substantial difference between movies and games: if I want to watch the latest Tarantino blockbuster, it’s gonna cost me 20 bucks and 3-4 hours, tops. If I want to play Sunset Overdrive, I have to invest 400-500 bucks in a console, 50 bucks in a second controller, and 50 bucks in the game. PC gaming? 500 bucks minimum for the hardware. And that’s where the AAA market is. Now, if you want to say the AAA market is going away, then that’s another story, but generally speaking, you’re just wrong. There’s something inherently hardcore about owning several hundred bucks in hardware just to play the game. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1150 "2014-10-21T18:40:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > People jumped in to cry about Leigh Anderson and others’ use of phrases like “gamers are over” as if she literally was saying “no one plays video games any more” or “people will literally never use the word ‘gamer’ any more” and then labeling her an idiot. No, you’re right. She’s not saying “people will literally never use the word ‘gamer’ any more.” She said “you shouldn’t use the word gamer anymore” with the implication that if you are, you’re basically pissing on women’s rights. My favorite part was “‘Gamer’ isn’t just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use.” and links to a hilariously stupid article from 2013 about how one dude doesn’t like the word gamer. I don’t think I’m alone in assuming that if you’re going to say “most people increasingly prefer not to use” you’ll point to a poll or survey or _something_ and not just someone else’s opinion piece, which I note has nothing to say on the subject of misogynistic attitudes typified by a ‘gamer’. Leigh, at least, _does_ seem to be, your declarations aside, to be under the impression that changing or removing the word gamer is a laudable goal. I see that as, at best, treating the symptom and not the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1151 "2014-10-21T18:45:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So, fine, you aren’t one of them. What’s your beef then? Why do you pick up the same silly quibbles they do? I repeat, what in the holy blue hell are you talking about? I think Leigh Alexander’s editorial about the death of the “gamer” was kind of stupid because it is a descriptor that’s not going away. Declaring them “over” is just going to confuse people who had no idea they weren’t supposed to use the word “gamer” because other people who use it are assholes. And the article itself was rather poorly researched. I like Alexander, but this was not her finest hour: _“I often say I’m a video game culture writer, but lately I don’t know exactly what that means. ‘Game culture’ as we know it is kind of embarrassing – it’s not even culture. It’s buying things, spackling over memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet.”_ Yeah, no. Game culture is the impromptu groups of people who play games at PAX until all hours of the evening. Game culture is the growing fanart and cosplay communities. Game culture is the game development jams that are organized around this country on a weekly basis. Game culture is the people on this message board talking about games. But Alexander really loses her audience with the next paragraph: _“‘Games culture’ is a petri dish of people who know so little about how human social interaction and professional life works that they can concoct online ‘wars’ about social justice or ‘game journalism ethics,’ straight-faced, and cause genuine human consequences. Because of video games.”_ This is bullshit of the highest order. “Games Culture” isn’t like that, assholes are. And if Alexander is having trouble separating the assholes from the regular people, then she needs to take a step back. Let someone else carry the baton for awhile. Because there is a great community of gamers out there and she needs to stop fighting the assholes and find it to remember everything that’s great about gaming. > [@](#): > > And that negates what exactly? It’s not Sarkeesian or Quinn or Anderson who blew this whole thing up. That negates the idea that GamerGate is some offshoot of “Games Culture.” It was, partially, but mostly it was assholes being assholes. The Internet gives them the ability to be anonymous and cause trouble “for the lulz.” Just because the trouble they’re causing is game related is neither here nor there. > [@](#): > > And there has been a reactionary campaign objecting to the very existence of those discussions. No, there hasn’t. Have you ever been to PAX? The atmosphere is incredibly inviting. There’s even a great group called [Take This](http://www.takethis.org/) that sets up shop at these conventions to talk to people who feel overwhelmed about stuff and to let them know that the community is there to help. The [Able Gamer Charity](http://www.ablegamers.com/) also sets up to help raise money for people who want to play games but trouble doing so because of a disability. [Child’s Play](http://www.childsplaycharity.org/) raises millions of dollars a year for children’s hospitals in the form of games, toys, and cash. That is “Games Culture.” > [@](#): > > I have no idea idea whom you’re speaking to, speaking for, or speaking about when you say this. I’m speaking to you. You’re coming into this thread lecturing us as if we’re all GamerGaters who are calling for the death of Quinn, Sarkeesian, and Alexander. We’re not. We’re trying to have a discussion about what’s going on and how to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1152 "2014-10-21T19:11:55Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’m speaking to you. Apparantly Acsenray is retarded and doesn’t know that when someone quotes you and then replies they are “speaking to you”. Or trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1153 "2014-10-21T20:34:21Z")
Chris Kluwe gets the extra point while exhibiting perfect form and effortless athleticism: [**“These paint-huffing shitgoblins think they’re “gamers,” and it pisses me the fuck off.”**](https://medium.com/the-cauldron/why-gamergaters-piss-me-the-f-off-a7e4c7f6d8a6) > [@](#): > > Thus, when I see an article titled “Gamers are dead,” referring to the death of the popular trope of a pasty young man in a dimly lit room, it fills me with joy, because it means WE FUCKING WON. So many people are playing games now that they are popular culture. They are not going away. All sorts of cool things, that I like, are now things that a whole bunch of other people like! There’s enough space now for people to make games that are strange and disturbing and maybe highlight a different perspective of the world, because gaming is no longer a niche activity, it’s something that everybody does. There is room for art in video games. That’s awesome! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1154 "2014-10-21T20:42:11Z")
Ye gods, that was cathartic. What he said. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1155 "2014-10-22T00:20:04Z")
I’m not sure if this is too off-topic, but I find this whole argument baffling and a little depressing, for reasons _besides_ the obvious misogyny and such. I grew up playing video games (I’m 32), and was known to precociously defend them from criticism, but then in high school I no longer had time to play them, and before long I had lost interest. I’ve almost never been tempted to play any since, and I can’t imagine when I would do that in any event. I look back on my youth with a lot of regret, and a big part of that regret is that I wish I hadn’t played so many video games. I am well aware that it was true then and it’s even more true today that many games have a lot of emotional depth, intellectual complexity, and whatnot. I’m thinking more of the sedentary and semi-isolating nature of video gaming. I wish I had been playing music, or not using video games (among other things) to distract myself from my heterosexuality. I remember a co-worker once mentioning how her sons were spending their vacation at the pool, primarily because of all the girls there. “At least they’re not playing video games,” she said. This seems unscientific of me, but [doesn’t ADD go away](http://vimeo.com/8638524) when kids are allowed to be kids and get away from the screens? Aren’t we worried about obesity and diabetes and such? To bring it all back to Gamergate, is this kind of behavior indicative of a subculture with highly disproportionate levels of social maladjustment? I’m isolated enough as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1156 "2014-10-22T02:31:36Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I’m not sure if this is too off-topic, but I find this whole argument baffling and a little depressing, for reasons _besides_ the obvious misogyny and such. I mean this with all the respect it deserves, but this has fuckall to do with games and everything to do with you. Maybe _you_ and several other people shouldn’t have played so many games. That has little to do with video games themselves. Maybe Tom shouldn’t have read so many books and gone outside more. Maybe Sue should have studied more instead of going on so many dates. Games may contribute to social maladjustment but getting rid of them or curtailing their use is treating a symptom, not the disease. You’re still going to have socially maladjusted teens but they’ll express their social unease in other ways. “Won’t somebody please think of the children?” is usually a totally inane argument, and that’s the case here. > [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I’m isolated enough as it is. That as well may be, but that’s not the fault of video games. It’s your fault (and possibly that of your parents). Blaming video games is like an alcoholic blaming liquor or misogynists blaming women. It’s just an excuse to shift the blame away from where it belongs. There are plenty of drinkers who aren’t alcoholics. There are plenty of men who don’t hate women. And there are plenty of people who play games who aren’t socially inept idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1157 "2014-10-22T02:33:48Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > To bring it all back to Gamergate, is this kind of behavior indicative of a subculture with highly disproportionate levels of social maladjustment? Yes, but that subculture is not the natural habitat of the typical video game player nowadays. (If indeed it ever was; I’ve met a whole lot of gamers over the years starting back in the days of Pong and Space Invaders, and I can think of at most maybe one or two of them who really struck me as socially maladjusted. Of course, that might just reflect how socially maladjusted I am myself, but I can dress normal-looking and carry on conversations with golfers at cocktail parties and so on, so I think I can pass for reasonably well socialized, and I don’t find the average gamer particularly bizarre.) AFAICT, the people who identify with the Gamergate “cause” fall into one or more of three basic groups, none of which is a dominant force in the population of players of video games: 1. guys who have resentment and bitterness issues concerning women in general; 2. trolls who just like to rile people up; 3. ill-informed and naive people who reflexively assume that people who get criticized for acting like jerks must be valiant iconoclasts whom the forces of conformity are trying to repress. In any case, however you feel about video games personally, ISTM that if you gave them up while you were in high school (so, 15 or so?) and you’re only 32 now, you don’t really need to worry about having misspent your youth. As for today’s youth, well sure, limiting children’s screen time is a valid parental concern. And has been ever since the invention of TV. (Or possibly ever since the proliferation of movie theaters with cheap double features: back in the 1940’s people were tsk-tsking about children left all day at the movies unsupervised.) The prospect of sitting on your butt and looking at the moom pitchers has always been tempting to many children, and parents have always worried about their overdosing on it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1158 "2014-10-22T07:33:23Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > I grew up playing video games (I’m 32), and was known to precociously defend them from criticism, but then in high school I no longer had time to play them, and before long I had lost interest. I’ve almost never been tempted to play any since, and I can’t imagine when I would do that in any event. I look back on my youth with a lot of regret, and a big part of that regret is that I wish I hadn’t played so many video games. No offense, but this argument always boils down to “I was a depressed weirdo who played too many games… but I stopped playing several decades ago… something something… so shouldn’t everybody stop playing games?” None of the parts of the argument flow correctly. OK, you think you were a depressed weirdo because of games. I don’t think that about myself. My friends and I played games in addition to other things we did. None of us dated (or, to use your words, we were distracted from our heterosexuality) because we were awkward teenagers. We still would have been awkward without games. And not for nothing, but the majority of us have been married for quite a few years now and those that aren’t all have long-time significant others. And as far as I know, none of us have given up games completely. For most people, video games are not a destructive force to be tempted by. They’re just a hobby to be enjoyed. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1159 "2014-10-22T09:15:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Just to clarify, my point isn’t that gamers are or aren’t over-- I don’t really care, and it’s a dumb discussion anyway. > > My point is that gamers (or whatever) need to learn to accept people making basic social commentary about games, just like they do about every single other medium out there, without throwing a hissy fit or pretending to misunderstand what’s being talked about. No one was arguing against your “point,” then, unless you count the #Gamergate trolls that popped in for a bit. No one is throwing a hissy fit. It’s called arguing. Heck, it’s fucking social commentary. Obviously we have no problem with that. We are discussing a specific article, written in a specific context, and specific interpretations of that article, given in this thread. Specifics you seem to think are a dumb argument that are not worth discussing. We are arguing with the idea that “gamer” means misogynist or unaccepting. That’s the context in which it was being declared dead. No one is misinterpreting what **Ascenray** is saying. You seem to have waded into a discussion you don’t know or care about, thinking it must be like this other discussion because it uses similar words. We’re not discussing the idea that “gamers are dead” in the context of “punk is dead.” That was the point of my post. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1160 "2014-10-22T09:31:32Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I’m speaking to you. You’re coming into this thread lecturing us as if we’re all GamerGaters who are calling for the death of Quinn, Sarkeesian, and Alexander. We’re not. We’re trying to have a discussion about what’s going on and how to fix it. Okay, maybe that’s it. It isn’t so much bigotry as a guy not knowing anything about the situation and trusting information from an article that we all pretty much agree is inaccurate. The “gamer” subculture is not widely regarded as this horrible place. People aren’t refusing to take on the title of “gamer” due to some backlash. Gaming events where self-identified gamers gather are only getting bigger than ever. The gaming subcuture has a bigger presence than ever online. Far from dying, gamers are thriving. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596/1161 "2014-10-22T11:08:01Z")
I’ve got no problem recognizing that an overlap exists between gamers and men’s-rights-type assholes, thus it not being accurate to describe this as solely a “gamer” thing. I was a bit surprised by how much pointless violence against female characters were in some games, and that bit in _God of War 3_ where the woman gets squished by the wheel seemed especially gratuitous, but hey, schlocky exploitation movies have been doing that for decades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gamergate/697596.md?page=59)