Games are not considered "speech"

An Indianapolis ordinance (apparently virtually identical to the St. Louis one) prohibiting minors from playing violent video games in arcades was struck down by the Federal Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit last year. If the Eighth Circuit does not overturn (which it probably will), this case will go to the Supreme Court on a circuit conflict.

My bet is on the Supreme Court siding with the Seventh on this one. This Court has been pretty friendly to free speech claims; they overturned a ban on virtual child porn recently, and have been very restrictive on attempts to regulate the Internet for the benefit of children.

Video games can be speech and still be regulated if the government can prove it has a substantial interest in doing so. You know…like…video games with mind control rays that incite you to violence…or…games that yell “fire” in a crowded living room…

You could theoretically be charged with criminal trespass, although this is very unlikely. Also, a theatre which knowingly or recklessly exposes a minor to prurient material may face charges of pandering (or some equivalent offense), and the child may be adjudicated a delinquent as a result. Sneaking in to see a titty movie might get you a year of reform school.

Yes, but all of that is outside the scope of the movie rating system. Of course there are obscenity laws, and “Contributing to the deliquency of a minor”, etc. etc., but these things are decided independently of the movie rating system. The MPAA (quite rightly) has taken the position that these are matters for the courts to decide, and they will not be arbiters of what is “obscene” or is illegal to show to a minor. In fact, an obscene movie is not likely to have been rated by the MPAA at all.

Relating this back to the original post, it would make sense that the game “rating system” would be treated the same way: it is an advisory rating , self-applied by the game distrbutors (in that sense even less authoritative than MPAA ratings, which are determined indepedent of the movie producers), and in no way a legal determination that the game contains prurient or obscene material and therefore not to be exposed to minors. However, the judge (and the St. Louis city council) decided to treat the ratings are as if they were such a determination. IMHO, it’s this giving the ratings a legal weight the game makers did not intend them to have that is wrong. Hopefuly, the higher courts will see this also and throw out the law.

I also whole heartedly agree that the judge’s determination that the games don’t constitute speech is ridiculous. It’s a rather a patheric attempt to avoid admitting this law makes serious first ammendment violations .

Well, since this Judge reviewed four way old games why didn’t someone show him MYST? MYST is probably the first story driven game I ever played in a 3-D environment. Heck, they have MYST books out. Zork is another story driven game that he should have seen.

It’ll be overturned.

Slee

I don’t care if he reviewed old games or not. Hell, in the days of the Commodore 64 there existed games that should clearly fall under First Amendment rights. Hell, so what if (even before that) pong was as simplistic as a very young child’s coloring book? They have, and always have had, the capacity to express ideas.

Sounds to me like this dope is trying to make a name for himself by making an idiotic ruling that will almost certainly be overturned by a higher court.

Doesn’t ANYONE in the whole video game debate (I’m pointing this finger at YOU, Joe Lieberman) actually have a teenage kid that could explain video games to them? I guarantee you these people have no idea what they’re talking about and your average 16 year old could clue them in in 15 minutes.

Someone needs to buy Lieberman a copy of Grand Theft Auto 3, and force him to actually play it. I will bet cash money that he enjoys it.

On the issue of whether Pong can express an idea: http://www.youngprimitive.cz/pong.swf

There was an interesting point in the ruling, however, that must be addressed: the idea that the plot developments are not truly part of the game, but are merely somewhat of a “goad” to keep you playing. This is actually kind of a fair cop for some games… it might explain Fear Effect actually fitting his definition despite it being a clearly narrative game. It means that Final Fantasy is right out. :smiley:

The solution? Cite two different types of games. Either those that, like Planescape, are dependent on the player’s actions for the plot to advance (and with the plot deeply affecting the gameplay) or those that, like Metal Gear Solid, tie the plot and gameplay together so inextricably that it’s difficult to tell where one ends and another begins. Easy.

Any game that makes you sit through as many cut-scenes as MGS2 is obviously trying to tell you something. It did get pretty preachy there, especially at the end.

Planescape: Torment had, IIRC, around 400,000 lines of text. Obviously no meaning to convey there. :rolleyes:

Some of the first games you could play on a personal computer were purely text. Planetfall is one of my all-time favorites.

I think this judge subscribes to the “games-are-for-kids” school of non-thought. I think the descision will get overturned as well, but it shouldn’t have to. Some thought and an honest selection of modern games should have been enough for a proper ruling.

Mortal Kombat: two movies directly about the game, and several movies based on the premise of a fighting championship. Rocky, Bloodsport, Best of the Best one and two (and for all I know there are more)… the list goes on and on.

Fear Effect: simply put, an animation-based adventure. Most of the game is a shooter, with a slight supernatural undertone (until the end, where the story turned strictly supernatural). This describes several Disney movies (with the exception of the shooting) and most japanimation cartoons (including the shooting… and nudity!). The game really did have an awesome story, too, including endings which were based on explicit choices made throughout the game.

Resident Evil: Duh. Need I mention any of these movies?

Doom: Well, here we are. The most beloved of the press: first person shooters. Why these are much different from James Bond movies is beyond me.

Issue of game vs story vs game-and-story: Uninteresting (IMO) as a matter of legality. Clearly video games can be shown to either directly inspire movies (Resident Evil, Tron–I think, MK…) or to be directly inspired by movies (Fear Effect, Resident Evil, MK…). Noting that many games seem to act as a waypoint of entertainment, where games like resident evil are based on stories told in movies, after which they make movies based on the game that was based on previous movies… well, it seems to me that the only issue here is that the actual interaction—the gameplay—is not protected under freedom of speech. This seems startlingly obvious: behavior in general is not speech-related. Driving a car is not a standard outlet for expression, even if Mazda would like to convince you otherwise. Eating dinner is not a standard outlet for expression, even if Fridays and Applebees would like to convince you otherwise.

The key of videogames is the immersion of behavior, previously gained only by ingenuity (pong, Tempest, Tron games), but now gained through suspension of disbelief, intriguing stories, and blurring the line between playing and watching. RPG like Baldur’s Gate lean heavily on choices the player makes… the story is based on the game, unlike most console games which has it more or less the other way around, though alternate endings have been around since NES days (Metroid, anyone?).

Because of the merging of two otherwise disparate media, I can see why the judge may haev made the error that he did. But I can pick paintings, movies, pictures, and stories which have no intellectual or artistic merit (hell, I can make those ;)). I do not believe the games he picked lacked artistic merit or even interesting expression, but it is perhaps easier to ignore them in those games.

A ruling like this is looking at the issue entirely too simplistically. It is like thinking badminton (sp?-- too lazy here), tennis, raquetball, and ping-pong are all the same game, which I think is obviously BS, though is is also fairly uncomplicated to abstract away to a level where they are equivalent.

Games haven’t traditionally been a vehicle for great expression, but how many of us cried when Aeris died in FF7? (come on, I couldn’t be the only one!) We didn’t get to love her character just because of the story, but because we were there when it happened. We rescued her, we fought with her, we took her out on a date because we though Tifa was too stuffy. And let’s not even get into the big picture of ecological soundness that the game had as a major theme. (actually, every FF game I’ve played has had some serious themes running through it, even if some were kinda shallow)

We can look at games in two ways (as mentioned above). We can look at games as actions which are motivated by stories, or stories which are motivated by actions. Some games, of course, only have actions (like Tetris, for instance), and some are basically all story with limited interaction (some crappy RPGs come to mind). But the issue is that the line between these two types of games cannot be clearly drawn, and never was drawn. I remember Rendevous with Rama, a game for the Commodore 64 that was based on a novel. And the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy game? No, obviously nothing resembling expression there.

The distinction is philsophically interesting, but entirely too arbitrary. Games always have, and always will have, an ability to express ideas. That we happen to be part of the interaction there instead of just passive observers is a petty, petty distinction to make.

Indeed, it would seem that way, and that’s why I cited Planescape where the plot is literally determined by the player’s actions. The reason why gameplay in this context might be protected under freedom of speech is that the gameplay itself is part of the narrative process and can’t be extricated from said narrative (and theme, etc) without the narrative losing all meaning. This is not true of some games: you can videotape the “plot segments” of a Final Fantasy game and lose very little. For a game like Morrowind, the upcoming Project Ego, or even older games like Ultima VII the player’s behavior is pretty much deterministic of the following narrative and the themes it reveals. It’s the interaction that makes the game a game, after all, and if you don’t protect the player’s role in that narrative, you risk censoring games that allow the opportunity for the player to behave in culturally inappropriate fashions as a way of helping to drive a speech-protected theme or narrative.

I realize that you addressed this in the rest of your post, but the rest of your post seemed to be at odds with this description, and I wanted to emphasize that in this case behaviour certainly can be described as “freedom of speech”.

BTW, I didn’t cry when Aeris died. I cried when Nei died in Phantasy Star 2. The emotional impact of gaming goes way, way back. As do the spoilers. Oops.

Oh, I meant the post to be at odds… to fight the “obvious” inferrence by appearance. We are in complete agreement.

I wasn’t crying! I just had something in my eye! :smiley:

What’s there to debate here? Everyone agrees the judge is a dumbass :).

It’s always nice to see people other than me pimping Torment.

They should make a sequel about Annah, the only cg character I’ve ever found sexy. Lara Croft can bite me. :smiley: