# Games that let the player feel guilty **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 25, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372 "2012-07-25T19:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/61 "2012-07-27T02:09:06Z")
Some games have these quests where somebody dies, like the Mace of Molag Bal quest in Skyrim. I tend to have a sort of meta-game guilt about these things, because it feels like nobody had to die if I had just not followed up on the quest. But that jerk that’s doomed bugs you to take the quest every time you walk by him, which you have to do often in that particular town. I used to feel bad about the other guy, but after talking to the other Boethian worshippers, I was fine with it. Somebody should make these fuckers pay. But… well, it’s still the kind of ugly affair I don’t like to witness, much less participate in, even understanding that it’s just a game. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/62 "2012-07-27T02:51:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > Some games have these quests where somebody dies, like the Mace of Molag Bal quest in Skyrim. I tend to have a sort of meta-game guilt about these things, because it feels like nobody had to die if I had just not followed up on the quest. But that jerk that’s doomed bugs you to take the quest every time you walk by him, which you have to do often in that particular town. I used to feel bad about the other guy, but after talking to the other Boethian worshippers, I was fine with it. Somebody should make these fuckers pay. But… well, it’s still the kind of ugly affair I don’t like to witness, much less participate in, even understanding that it’s just a game. On the other hand, talking to the other Vigilants of Stendarr gives me a definite Spanish Inquisition vibe from these guys (“Walk always in the light, or we will drag you to it!”; “Stendarr’s Mercy be upon you, for the Vigil has none to spare.”). Might make you fell better about killing him. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/63 "2012-07-27T02:51:34Z")
(Posted before I saw Der Trihs’ post) Yeah, but you don’t exactly sacrifice the Stendarr guy. He hears the voices too, and attacks you to save his own skin. Boethiah is very… Darwinian. In Morrowind he’s downright friendly, but he’s also a “good guy” according to the Dunmer. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/64 "2012-07-27T05:19:18Z")
In games that force the decision on you, I’m not sure I really feel guilt. What I feel is the breaking of my suspension of disbelief because I know I (or my character) would never do that. I don’t feel bad about doing it, because I’m not doing it–the game is making me. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/65 "2012-07-27T05:46:34Z")
I didn’t feel bad about the Mace of Molag Bal quest because followers of Boethiah are generally bad people to begin with. In Tropico (3 & 4) I usually find myself falling into the role of benevolent dictator. I don’t hold elections, but I do work to improve the prosperity of my people. Otherwise, I tend to pick the good path in games I play. Whenever I start an evil playthrough of a game, it feels oddly unfulfilling and I quickly lose interest. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/66 "2012-07-27T11:26:26Z")
In Bioware Games, the evil path most often involves just being dickish. I couldn’t stand to play Jade Empire in dick mode, because you have to constantly belittle people for no reason. As of the advent of Mass Effect, I think Bioware started to recognize that being an asshole doesn’t mean feeling like a nasty, small-minded bully. Assholes feel righteous about what they do. The evil path should be more seductive, by tempting the player to feel good about the shitty things they do. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/67 "2012-07-27T17:04:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > (Posted before I saw Der Trihs’ post) > > Yeah, but you don’t exactly sacrifice the Stendarr guy. He hears the voices too, and attacks you to save his own skin. > > Boethiah is very… Darwinian. In Morrowind he’s downright friendly, but he’s also a “good guy” according to the Dunmer. In any Elder Scrolls game, if the question is “Wow, why is this so fucked up?”, the answer is “Daedra.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/68 "2012-07-27T17:27:13Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I didn’t feel bad about the Mace of Molag Bal quest because followers of Boethiah are generally bad people to begin with. I’m playing Skyrim now, and I haven’t reached that quest (I’ve only encountered the name Molag Bal in a book somewhere), so I can’t discuss that particular situation. But what you said gets at something I find interesting about games: I sometimes find myself acting in unexpected ways, and in doing so I re-examine my ethical code. Is it okay to slaughter a person because they’re a dick? Many years ago, I was in a role-playing game in which we played versions of ourselves granted supernatural powers. At one point my good friend was being held hostage by a zealot, and I ripped the zealot’s life out of her in order to save my friend. Up to that point I’d always considered myself a pacifist. My in-game choice stunned me, and I spent several days thinking about what I’d done in the game and why; and after that moment I never called myself a pacifist. That’s the kind of thing that I think games can do at their best, that other art forms aren’t nearly so good at, since you don’t have nearly (if any) agency in other art forms. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/69 "2012-07-27T22:46:17Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I’m surprised no one has mentioned **Shadow of the Colossus** yet. > > The game is a series of boss battles. However, as you kill them one by one, you start to question why you’re doing this. Obviously in game terms you have to do it to get to the end, but there’s no rationale for it. These big creatures are just off minding their own business and you have to track them down and murder them. I found the whole premise so depressing eventually I stopped before I reached the final boss. That’s because Shadow of the Colossus doesn’t make you feel guilty. It makes you feel wrong. Best description I ever read comes from [Penny Arcade.](http://www.penny-arcade.com/2009/06/08/) > [@](#): > > You know immediately that you are engaged in something like evil, if not evil itself, but our appetites as players demand that we seek objectives and conquer them - and the game scourges us for this dereliction of conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/70 "2012-07-29T14:33:20Z")
The City of Heroes MMO has a feature that lets you change your character’s alignment by running special “alignment missions”. Basically, while you’re busy defeating opponents, you’ll occasionally pick up “tips” on something that’s going down. If your character is a hero, for example, you might get a tip that such-and-such bad guy/villainous group is doing some dastardly deed. These missions can be completed in either of two ways: the “hero” way, or the “vigilante” way. The “hero” option often involves saving innocent victims, even though doing so means the bad guy gets away. For example, choosing to defuse the bombs the bad guy placed in an occupied office building instead of going after bad guy himself. The “vigilante” option, meanwhile, would be to go after the bad guy himself, even if doing so means all those bombs go off and innocents die, because, after all, if you let the bad guy get away he’s just going to pull this crap again and again. A few sacrifices _now_ are a small price to pay to prevent even more deaths later. Choosing the “vigilante” option frequently results in some mission-completion text that makes you feel like quite a jerk. One mission in particular involved a tip that a certain villain group was putting a mind-altering chemical into the city water supply. The hero option involved stopping the plot and destroying the chemicals, while the vigilante option involved finding and beating down the main villain behind the plot, even though doing that would mean that some innocents would be exposed to the chemical. In both options, you learn that the chemical has the unexpected side effect of turning those who drink it into mutated snake people. If you chose the vigilante option, by the time you discover this side effect it’s too late to destroy the chemicals because you’re on the other side of the city looking for the ringleader, and so the chemical gets into the water supply. After choosing the the vigilante option on my vigilante character, and completing the mission, my character was standing on the sidewalk while I decided what to do next … and a random citizen passed by and hollered, “My cousin got turned into a snake because of you! I’ll get you … one day!” ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/71 "2012-08-03T13:28:04Z")
I always get a twinge of guilt every time I kill a guard in the Assassin’s Creed series. Dude’s just trying to make a living and support his family – he has no dog in the Assassin/Templar fight. Why am I allowed to massacre them with no consequences? Same kinda goes for the Genome Soldiers (or Volgin’s soldiers) in the Metal Gear Solid series. They didn’t choose to be there, and some of them are just plain _scared_. Try hiding under a bed or in a ventilation shaft during Alert mode with a guard nearby. “I… I know he’s close!” ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/72 "2012-08-03T14:30:08Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > I always get a twinge of guilt every time I kill a guard in the Assassin’s Creed series. Dude’s just trying to make a living and support his family – he has no dog in the Assassin/Templar fight. Why am I allowed to massacre them with no consequences? I had similar thoughts while killing Venture Company workers in World of Warcraft. Sure, Venture Company is run by unethical, borderline-evil goblins who don’t care about laws or property rights if there’s profit to be had. But … they’ll hire _anybody_, of any race/species. I always found myself wondering how many of those employees were poor schmucks who just needed a job to feed their families, and who may not even realize that the work (which seems to be good, honest manual labor) is illegal or unethical. OTOH, the game’s AI makes them attack players on sight, so we’re not left with much choice. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/73 "2012-08-03T16:03:12Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > I always get a twinge of guilt every time I kill a guard in the Assassin’s Creed series. Dude’s just trying to make a living and support his family – he has no dog in the Assassin/Templar fight. Why am I allowed to massacre them with no consequences? > > Same kinda goes for the Genome Soldiers (or Volgin’s soldiers) in the Metal Gear Solid series. They didn’t choose to be there, and some of them are just plain _scared_. Try hiding under a bed or in a ventilation shaft during Alert mode with a guard nearby. “I… I know he’s close!” Sometimes you can kill Johnny Sasaki, but I never could. Poor guy’s gotta crap all the time, why make things worse by snapping his neck? One of the earliest deleted/extra scenes I have seen was from the first _Austin Powers_ (on VHS!). It deals with the consequences of the [death of a (not very bright) henchman](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag_AFraxj-4). ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/74 "2012-08-10T08:46:30Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > I feel some real life guilt over MMOs. Every once in a while in everquest or LOTRO I would buy something out of pity. Some kid misunderstood something and had an item the they though was really valuable, but was pretty much trash. i ignored them like everybody else, and you could see in there repeated sell messages they were really confused and frustrated after all the time the spent getting their “item”. I would log off but still think about it and feel bad for them and guilty that some kid was having a miserable night. But it was almost always someone low level, it’s hard to get high level and not figure it out by then.So when I got high enough levels where what they expected it to be worth was petty cash, so i would buy it from them. > I probably got scammed a time or two but I have pretty good instincts on BS vs real stupidity, and if they did good show, you got me to give you money i was giving away anyway. I remember that, mostly from EQ but yeah from LOTRO too. Good on yas. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372/75 "2012-08-10T10:29:56Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > I always get a twinge of guilt every time I kill a guard in the Assassin’s Creed series. Dude’s just trying to make a living and support his family – he has no dog in the Assassin/Templar fight. Why am I allowed to massacre them with no consequences? It’s not your fault - you’re just remembering what has already happened. Blame Altair/Ezio for making the choice in the first place;) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/games-that-let-the-player-feel-guilty/629372.md?page=3)