# Gandalf, if they were no "ordinary wolves"---then what were they? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 4, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725 "2010-02-04T22:00:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/21 "2010-02-05T12:02:30Z")
Thanks for all the replies. Interesting and entertaining as always,. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/22 "2010-02-05T18:18:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > A third possibility would be that the “dead” did what Wolverine does : regen, and when the CGI is over you hear the clink of the expelled bullet hitting the ground. Did that really annoy anyone else? The bullet came out whole, so it must have penetrated his skull. Except his skull is unpenetrable so that makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/23 "2010-02-05T18:44:01Z")
> [@Sri\_Theo](#): > > Did that really annoy anyone else? The bullet came out whole, so it must have penetrated his skull. Except his skull is unpenetrable so that makes no sense. Well, yeah, if his skull was impenetrable, then it should have, honestly, just bounced off, or only been lodged in the skin / muscles on his skull. I chalk it up to dramatic license, to demonstrate Wolvie’s healing factor. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/24 "2010-02-05T19:00:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Skald, you’re getting lazy these days. Time was, you wouldn’t even _have_ “usual threats”: You’d tailor-make a new one for every transgressor. What’s the world coming to, anyway, when **Skald the Rhymer** can’t even come up with new forms of poetic justice? No kidding. I’m imagining **Skald** puttering around the volcano lair, wearing his Evil Overlord headgear and shirt, but with pajama bottoms and slippers. The adamantium portals haven’t been maintained for a while, so he just leaves them open and put in a screen door to keep the critters out. The vast refectories where his hordes of minions once dined are empty, and only Madge (who was looking for work after she lost her job at the middle school cafeteria) can be found there now, making Sloppy Joes with Mac & cheese for herself and the janitor. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/25 "2010-02-05T20:19:44Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Well, yeah, if his skull was impenetrable, then it should have, honestly, just bounced off, or only been lodged in the skin / muscles on his skull. > > I chalk it up to dramatic license, to demonstrate Wolvie’s healing factor. I think what \*\*Theo \*\*is trying to say is that the bullets should have shattered or at the very least scrunched on hitting Wolvie’s impenetrable noggin’. Except in the movie, the bullet comes out pristine, like it hasn’t even been fired. It didn’t bother me, but I did notice it too. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/26 "2010-02-05T20:39:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Has Ann Coulter ever denied being a werewolf? A simple denial of this rumor would put it all to rest, is that too much to ask for? Personally, I would need to see the long-form vault record of her birth as a non-werewolf before I would be convinced. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/27 "2010-02-05T20:48:40Z")
The Gaurhoth of the Silmarillion are translated (by the Professor) as “werewolves”, but are not explicitly described as shape-shifters – though I would think that to be implicit in the definition of ‘werewolf’. But if the Gaurhoth and the Wargs are explicitly equated, one the ancestor of the other, I’m unaware of it. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/28 "2010-02-05T22:39:25Z")
In the Silmarillion, werewolves are described as “fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he [Sauron] had imprisoned in their bodies.” The plainest interpretation of that would be that there were originally two types of creatures: a disembodied, malevolent spiritual being; and a fearsome animal, possibly more akin to the now-extinct dire wolf than the more familiar gray wolf. The Wargs could be descended from the werewolves _or_ the soulless beasts from which they were created. In either case, they would not be “ordinary” wolves. (Note that in Tolkien’s world, it is possible for animals to possess human levels of intelligence and will without having souls.) The use of the word “imprisoned” implies that the spirits did not enter the bodies willingly (although they could have been deceived) and could not change their form. Of course, the Silmarillion as we know it is cobbled together from some of Tolkien’s unpublished notes, with large chunks rewritten by others, so it’s of questionable authority, unlike “The Lord of the Rings,” which we can take as gospel, and “The Hobbit,” which we can consider mostly true except for an occasional embellishment or emendation by the narrator. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/29 "2010-02-05T22:45:35Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Gaurhoth of the Silmarillion are translated (by the Professor) as “werewolves”, but are not explicitly described as shape-shifters – though I would think that to be implicit in the definition of ‘werewolf’. But if the Gaurhoth and the Wargs are explicitly equated, one the ancestor of the other, I’m unaware of it. I think the Perfesser uses the term as he does deliberately. Remember, part of the conceit of the Silmarillion is that it’s a translation of an ancient text, and such things are by their very nature often inspecific and seemingly misleading, as language changes over time. CF: the KJV using “witch” to mean “poisoner.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/30 "2010-02-05T23:55:06Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Personally, I would need to see the long-form vault record of her birth as a non-werewolf before I would be convinced. :dubious: The date on her gravestone would be proof enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/31 "2010-02-06T05:16:38Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > …and only Madge (who was looking for work after she lost her job at the middle school cafeteria) can be found there now, making Sloppy Joes with Mac & cheese for herself and the janitor. Didn’t you hear? **Skald** let the janitor go in the last round of layoffs. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/32 "2010-02-06T05:25:45Z")
Dibs on the sloppy Joe. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725/33 "2010-02-07T16:21:30Z")
Sauron on Wargs: > [@](#): > > I actually designed my own race. Didn’t I tell you? I mean, it’s just some of the lesser evil Maiar incarnated into physical bodies, but still. They’re called “Wargs,” which is a very cool name I came up with after Carcharoth suggested it. Originally, I designed them as 400′ long giant black wolves with vicious red tentacles coming from their shoulders. They were kewl. > > Melkor hated the design. He went on about resource allocations and production quotas — all the shit I tell him when I point out that Project Flying Fire-Breathing Monster is 12 millennia behind schedule and 800% over budget. Then he showed me his Warg redesign — they looked like some kind of big, mangy pig-dog. What the hell? > > Finally, I got Melkor to agree that Wargs would be large, talking wolves, and that the Orcs would be able to use them as mounts. I’m proud of them — but the giant, tentacled Wargs were much cooler. (Tentacles are just really useful. I should grow some.) [http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=140](http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=140) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-if-they-were-no-ordinary-wolves-then-what-were-they/527725.md?page=1)