# Gandalf should have stayed dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 6, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033 "2014-03-06T18:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/21 "2014-03-07T00:11:15Z")
The only reasons why Tolkien would kill Gandalf in Moria were to remove his involvement in Lorien and in the breaking of the Fellowship. The author had to find a way to develop the individual characters of the other by momentarily removing the overbearing wizard. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/22 "2014-03-07T00:11:30Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > My understanding is that Gandalf’s death is to resolve a potential plot-hole: why else would Gandalf let Frodo and Sam continue alone to Mordor? Some of this is covered in Christopher Tolkien’s History of the LOTR and I think I remember that part. I will admit that I haven’t read the History of LOTR that you mentioned here, but I got the impression that Tolkien wasn’t one to let plot holes get in the way of the story he wanted to tell, if you get my drift. After all, there’s the whole question of why Gandalf didn’t just ask the Eagles to carry Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the Ring in, then fly back. Would have made much more sense, but would have made a VERY boring story in comparison. I kind of see it as the literary version of tenebrism. ---
**Author:** ![Gretchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8edcca/32.png) [@Gretchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gretchion)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/23 "2014-03-07T18:50:20Z")
So what if Gandalf didnt die in the first place? I assume the fellowship wouldn’t have quite as easily broken up. Would they have all entered Mordor? Would that have made it easier? Or more difficult, as they are a larger target. Ignore the fact that Aragorn and company were an effective strategy for keeping Sauron’s gaze away from Frodo and Sam… how well would the entire fellowship have fared in Mordor? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/24 "2014-03-07T19:07:52Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > I will admit that I haven’t read the History of LOTR that you mentioned here, but I got the impression that Tolkien wasn’t one to let plot holes get in the way of the story he wanted to tell, if you get my drift. After all, there’s the whole question of why Gandalf didn’t just ask the Eagles to carry Frodo over Mt. Doom and drop the Ring in, then fly back. Would have made much more sense, but would have made a VERY boring story in comparison. I kind of see it as the literary version of tenebrism. Yes, it would have been a very boring story. First there’s no evidence that the Eagles would have done it. next, there’s no evidence that the Eagles are immune to the Ring’s lure. But finally, if the Eagles tried it, they’d get hit with the full force of Saurons will, not to mention a bunch of Ringwraiths. They’d fail, Sauron would get the Ring back, short, boring and depressing tale. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/25 "2014-03-07T19:19:38Z")
If Gandalf had not returned after his fall in Moria, what would have happened to Theoden? Could someone else have helped him to see Saruman and Wormtongue’s true colors? As for the whole group going to Mordor - don’t think they would have. They would have still split up, realizing too big a group would be unworkable. Some hard choices to be made, in that alternate plot, but we do know if Boromir had lived he was going back to Minas Tirith. Some of the others would have gone with him. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/26 "2014-03-07T19:25:35Z")
Aragorn has to be alive to summon the Army of the Dead, then challenge Sauron. Gandalf has to be there to do all the stuff only he can do. Merry and Pippin have to be there to stab with Witch-King/rescue Faramir. Frodo and Sam have to be there to go to Mordor. Boromir, Legolas and Gimli are the only ones expendable. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/27 "2014-03-07T19:40:17Z")
Wasn’t it also to highlight the role of Eru? That is, Gandalf may not have been dead in the sense that his spirit was still around but there was no way he was coming back to ME without the direct intervention of Eru. That’s a pretty big deal right there and I think highlights the gravity of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/28 "2014-03-07T19:49:48Z")
> [@Eutychus](#): > > I’m not a Tolkien scholar as others are here so I’m sure someone will come along to correct me. But the way I read it was that the only way Gandalf could become powerful enough to defeat Saruman was to become his better. He was only a grey magician; Saruman was white and thus his better. So, Gandalf had to defeat the balrog in order to advance to the next level where he would be bale to defeat Saruman. [DM]congrats, you have smote the Balrog. You have gained a scroll of resurrection and 25,00xp, and are now a Level 42 magic user[/DM] ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/29 "2014-03-07T20:03:57Z")
Does Gandalf actually say he “died”, or does he just say things like “I passed through fire and water” and “I was brought back” and “Yes, Gandalf, that was the name I used to have,” and “I am Saruman as he ought to have been.” It’s not death-and-resurrection, it’s something altogether mystic and other, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/30 "2014-03-07T20:45:57Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Does Gandalf actually say he “died”, or does he just say things like “I passed through fire and water” and “I was brought back” and “Yes, Gandalf, that was the name I used to have,” and “I am Saruman as he ought to have been.” It’s not death-and-resurrection, it’s something altogether mystic and other, IIRC. ‘death’ is clearly an entirely different thing (or can be) in this world - the ‘Grey Havens’ and all that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/31 "2014-03-07T22:07:39Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Does Gandalf actually say he “died”, or does he just say things like “I passed through fire and water” and “I was brought back” and “Yes, Gandalf, that was the name I used to have,” and “I am Saruman as he ought to have been.” It’s not death-and-resurrection, it’s something altogether mystic and other, IIRC. This site argues at least his body was dead: > **[Gandalf's Death](https://valarguild.org/tolkien/encyc/articles/g/Gandalf/GandalfDeath.htm)** > > What really happened to Gandalf after his fall in Moria? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/32 "2014-03-07T22:41:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Nitpick: The Valar aren’t taking a hand-- They’re not subtle enough for that. The last time the Valar took a hand, the World got broken. Double-nitpick: if you’re referring to Akallabeth and the downfall of Numenor, then it wasn’t the Valar’s fault. They laid down their guardianship of the world, and it was Eru that broke it. And I agree with DrDeth’s link: Gandalf was dead, dead as a doornail. Just like everyone else in ME (and our own world, if you’re so inclined) he had an immortal spirit clothed in a mortal body, and the body died and the spirit left. But being an Istari, it was a round trip. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/33 "2014-03-07T23:12:38Z")
> [@Gretchion](#): > > So what if Gandalf didnt die in the first place? I assume the fellowship wouldn’t have quite as easily broken up. Would they have all entered Mordor? Would that have made it easier? Or more difficult, as they are a larger target. > > Ignore the fact that Aragorn and company were an effective strategy for keeping Sauron’s gaze away from Frodo and Sam… how well would the entire fellowship have fared in Mordor? IIR they hadn’t decided what would happen except that Boromir would return to Minas Tirith. Aragorn was torn on whether he would join Boromir or accompany Frodo but was leaning towards the former with Gandalf leading Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/34 "2014-03-07T23:37:20Z")
Gandalf had to die and return because his present avatar couldn’t handle the power he needed to project in his situation. This is one reason he was basically limited to an advisory/inspirational role. The spirit is somewhat limited by the vessel and projecting too much power would break it. When the Valar decided that Gandalf should take a slightly more active role in the proceedings, he was sent back in a form that could better handle the forces necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/35 "2014-03-07T23:45:24Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > Does Gandalf actually say he “died”, or does he just say things like “I passed through fire and water” and “I was brought back”. “I was sent back…” I think the precise wording there is important. > [@Letters #156](#): > > Gandalf really ‘died’, and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called ‘death’ as making no difference… He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/36 "2014-03-07T23:46:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > When the Valar decided that Gandalf should take a slightly more active role in the proceedings, he was sent back in a form that could better handle the forces necessary. Probably not the Valar. (pulling most of this straight out of my ass…) At the creation of the world, the Valar entered into it and were bound to it until The End. So they exist in space and time (although off the grid, so to speak, since the world was made round), like us mere mortals. Gandalf says that he “strayed out of thought and time”. So he went somewhere where the Valar weren’t, beyond time, beyond the bounds of the physical world. So he went to confer, consult and otherwise hobnob with The Big Guy Himself, Eru Iluvatar. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/37 "2014-03-07T23:49:39Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > So he went to confer, consult and otherwise hobnob with The Big Guy Himself, Eru Iluvatar. Or at least to say, “Sorry, boss, we blew it.” ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/38 "2014-03-07T23:54:21Z")
Yeah, I think it is because the characters represent something beyond just being characters. If you killed them off you’d be killing off what they represent, and what they represent, and how they face challenges, are vastly more important than the plot, which is riddled with ad hoc contrivances, really. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/39 "2014-03-08T00:51:22Z")
If “Naked I was sent back,” what about his ring? (Also, after he comes back, does he still have the Elven Sword – Glasnost…I mean Glamdring – that he picked up in The Hobbit? Do we ever see Gandalf the White wield Glamdring?) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033/40 "2014-03-08T01:39:15Z")
Sauron could not be killed while the ring still existed, and Saruman and Sauron wound up being weak and helpless spirits knawing at the world. The Ainur (Valar and Maiar) are bound to the world while it still exists and do not leave it. Morgoth is sent out and locked out in the darkness, but presumably he is there for the existence of all time, until summoned back to Arda for Dagor Dagorath, the final battle. He would be wise to refuse. Gandalf was sent back into the same body and an eagle carried it and Glamdring (and presumably the ring of fire) to Lothlorien. His powers were enhanced. He says he travelled out of time and space, so that presumably means he did not simply go to Valinor, but rather was summoned by the Creator outside Arda and sent back with more authority to act. Should he have stayed dead? I would have kept him dead for several thousand years like Sauron was. Frankly, the scene at the bridge is his high point and the rest of his stuff is a bit tiresome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gandalf-should-have-stayed-dead/683033.md?page=3)