ya just gotta smile…
(What’s sad is what has happened to Jack Bruce’s voice, at least as far as the pbs broadcast of albert hall goes.)
slowhand, however, shows no sign of wearing out.
:smack:
In my defense, I’m one of those who never heard the Marley version. The only ones I knew of was the Clapton one, and one done by a white woman whose name escapes me.
Well, violent video games may trigger aggressive behaviour in children.
I doubt, however, that playing Halo 2 all day long is going to turn someone into a mass-murderer.
Full disclosure: when I was eight, I bought a copy of Risk at a yard sale, and happily told my mom about it. She freaked out at the idea of me purchasing such a violent game, and even then I rolled my eyes and said, “Yeah, mom, if I play this game, I’m going to grow up to be Rambo!” I remember tears at a birthday party as a kid, when someone gave me an uber-cool machine-gun water-pistol, and my mom made me return it to the store. I hid my copies of D&D and Top Secret when I was a kid so that I could keep playing it.
And I’m a big ol’ pacifist these days, probably the most anti-war member of the board regulars (or at least right up there). So it does seem that violent fantasies don’t always lead to real-world violence.
That said, there’s just something uncomfortable to me about the idea that media has no effect on kids’ beliefs about violence. Miller and others, would you put any limits at all on what violent images children were exposed to? If so, what would determine these limits?
Daniel
I don’t think its the sort of issue where you can say, “Anything with X is inacceptable for all children.” It depends on the movie/book/whatever, and it depends on the kid. I was a bright kid with a solid grasp of the difference between fantasy and reality, so my parents didn’t mind letting me watch violent movies when I was pretty young. On the other hand, my best friend’s cousin had some severe emotional problems, and had a lot of violent outbursts*. If my kid were like that, I’d be much more selective in what I’d expose him to. Obviously, not all parents are going to be making the best choice about how to raise their kids, but I don’t think the fact that a parent lets their kid listen to a certain kind of music, or watch a particular type of movie, is evidence in-and-of itself that they’re not raising the kid right.
[sub]*I’m friends with that guy today: despite the fact that he looks like a Klingon biker, you couldn’t hope to meet a nicer, friendlier, more well-adjusted person.[/sub]
You’d be surprised to know how many people think it’s an Eric Clapton song.
“I Shot the Sheriff” and “Cop Killa” are not comparable songs. The former is a remorseful account of a defensive action:
All of the sudden I see Sheriff John Brown
Aiming to shoot me down
So I shot, I shot him down
…and the latter is a remorseless account of an offensive action:
I got my twelve gauge sawed off
I got my headlights turned off
I’m 'bout to bust some shots off
I’m 'bout to dust some cops off
A more appropriate comparison to “Cop Killa” would be “Midnight Rambler” by the Rolling Stones:
I’ll go easy with your cold-fanged anger
I’ll stick my knife right down your throat, baby
And it hurts!
In “Cop Killa”, Ice-T plays a character who is a murderer; in “Midnight Rambler”, Mick Jagger plays a character who is a serial rapist. The difference is that no pundits ever accused the Rollling Stones of advocating rape.
Ok, I promise no more CS posts in GD 
Yes, I would put limits, but I would not be particularly concerned about the lyrics that a five year old was listening to. When the child began to ask what the lyrics meant and if I considered the lyrics to be profane or offensive, that would be a good time to start monitoring the music for my own child. Another indicator would be if the child began to use the words in public.
I am in full agreement that media has an effect on kids’ beliefs about violence – expecially between the ages of approximately seven and fifteen --just not in the situation that Askia was describing.
Are you refering to the bible/koran/hadith? 
I agree with you either way. It certainly influenced a lot of people I know as children.
I always thought I had a pretty normal childhood, but I might just have to reassess that impression. When I was 5, I think my music repertoire was limited to songs like “Row Row Row Your Boat” and “Camptown Races.” Even when I was twice that age, I was more familiar with the Disney canon than with anything from the rap or heavy metal genres (though I did love oldies).
Frankly, I can’t imagine letting a five-year-old listen to music with lyrics like the ones listed. Personally, I don’t think I’d let a five-year-old listen to any adult-oriented music, even if the lyrics weren’t offensive, though I admit that’s an aesthetic taste, not a moral one – it just doesn’t seem “kid friendly.” Aren’t kids of that age supposed to be singing nursery rhymes?? Five is awfully young.
There are a lot of variations on this, but most of them don’t seem to include what seems to me to be the logical follow-through to the argument. Okay, so you want your kids to be exposed to various bad elements in society, and for them to be able to put them in context. Fair enough, but after you’ve exposed them to it, surely you don’t want them to be endlessly exposed to it, or even to revel in it? I want my kids to be aware of the history of anti-Semitism, and when they’re an appropriate age that might even include showing them bits of Nazi propoganda. But I don’t want them wearing out a copy of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” or having “The Eternal Jew” be their favorite movie – popping it in when their friends are over, memorizing favorite scenes, quoting favorite lines. etc.
Fore the record, I can’t imagine that a few minutes of muffled sound coming from Askia’s headphones would do the kid much harm. I think the mother’s to blame for letting it become the kid’s favorite song in the first place.
I should add that I don’t think it’s an all-or-nothing proposition. Violence and profanity can be put to intelligent use; I don’t see why a mature child at an appropriate age shouldn’t see “A Clockwork Orange.”
Again, though, trying to stop a kid from listening to it will only make them want to listen to it more.
I figured out on my own that I didn’t really like profanity-filled woman-hating lyrics and I chose other music to listen to. There continue to be songs (e.g. “Every Breath You Take” by the Police - a stalker song, pure and simple) whose lyrics offend me each and every time I hear them, yet which I kind of like, so I have to figure out how to balance it on my own. If I find out that a song I have liked in the past contains something really hateful, that will likely kill my enjoyment of it.
Kids can learn to critically evaluate lyrics in this manner. I believe they should.
This always strikes me as being incredibly defeatist; by this logic, should there be any rule for kids? Because they’re just going to do what they want to anyways, right? Why make them go to bed – they just want to stay up late. Why make them eat their peas – they just want to eat candy.
I also don’t know that it’s completely true. Some kids are going to be rebellious, no matter what. But all kids, to some degree, take their cues from their parents: if they see that they’re parents are really opposed to something, lots of kid (if they have a good relationship with their parents) will follow suit. Especially younger kids (after all, in the original example we are talking about a five-year-old).
It also depends on how it’s presented. If all mention of something is completely banned in the household, of course it’s going to be more tempting. But if, as you reasonably suggested in your first post, you sit down with the kid, listen to the music, and discuss why you feel it is inappropriate, it kind of takes the thrill and mystery out of it right there.
And sometimes parents laws are simply effective, even if the kid does want to break them: I’d bet that your friend who had to sneak in banned records was ultimately exposed to less of that kind of music than if her parents had taken a more laissez-faire attitude towards it.
But let’s apply your theory: your 12-year-old daughter comes home from school with a CD by Prussian Blue, the “Olsen twins of white supremacist hate.” You don’t overreact, but you sit down with your daughter, listen to some of the music, and calmly explain why you disagree with the lyrics, and find them offensive. Cowgirl Jr. listens thoughtfully, and seems to understand where you’re coming from. Problem solved – or so you think. Next day, however, you hear the music playing again. “But mom,” Cowgirl Jr says, “I just like the beat.” You bite your tongue, wanting her to make her own decision. But she keeps on playing the music all week. She starts singing the lyrics in the supermarket. She brings home new friends who are also Prussian Blue fans, who run around the house talking about “niggers” and “spics,” and your daughter starts using those words too. You repeat to your daughter that you really don’t like the lyrics, but you’ve been lax about it so far, and she knows that she can keep on listening to it without it being a big deal.
Now are you honestly telling me that at some point you don’t pull your daughter aside and tell her that no she is not allowed to listen to that music anymore, and that it is, indeed, bad music, in spite of what her friends might say? Am I misrepresenting your philosophy?
I think the whole point of childhood is to learn to make critical life choices, because at some point you’re going to be an adult and you’re going to have to make those choices for yourself. But it’s a gradual process. There are some choices young kids cannot and should not make for themselves. The older and more responsible and mature they get, the more choices they have a right to make.
I don’t think it’s a big deal when a kid is five years old. It is a bigger deal when they are older, however.
Anecdotal evidence: As a child, I loved the soundtrack to the musical “Grease.” I grew up listening to it, because my mom loved it. One of my favorite songs was “Greased Lightnin’.” One day as I was nearing adolescence, I began to realize what the lyrics actually meant, and they were really quite sexual. I had never realized it before.
I think it is at this time when the lyrics to the music your children listen to are important to monitor. A five year old simply isn’t capable of really processing what the words mean. A ten year old, on the other hand, can. And as far as the dilemma in the above post, the solution is simple: not in my house. “It’s my house and my rules. You can make your own rules when you’re out of the house and on your own.” That’s what my parents always said and it worked, for the most part.
“Aren’t kids of that age supposed to be singing nursery rhymes??”
Nursery rhymes and fairy tales are full of violent shit. Remember - singing about chopping off mice tails, stepping on a crack to break your mother’s back, and the lullabye where the baby falls out of a tree? Stepmothers abuse kids left and right. Hansel and Gretel face being eaten and instead roast their tormentor. Rodgers01 Were you scarred by repeated exposure to such horrible images? Another one for ‘tempest in a teapot’.
You really see no difference between the two? I used to think people were being at least a bit disingenuous when they floated this argument, but maybe not, so I guess I’ll have to take it seriously. The crucial difference to me is one of degree and presentation. Like I mentioned above, I don’t think we should shield kids from all bad things in the world – and fairy tales can be a good way to introduce unpleasant realities. But it’s a gradual process: fairy tales, for one thing, are set “long long ago, in a place far far away.” That remoteness makes a difference: makes the kid feel safe in the modern world while letting them think about some of the bad stuff that happens. The stuff talked about in the music and movies in question is very current and very real. (Kinda ties into the way that most parents wouldn’t mind their kids learning about big, savage, mythical-sounding dinosaurs duking it out, but wouldn’t show their kids a videotape of a dogfight taped last week. Both introduce a truth about the savagery of nature, but which would you want your kid to be watching?)* Fairy tales are also usually morality tales in which goodness is celebrated, and a lesson is usually taught; same can’t be said for these songs and movies.
Finally, it also comes down to the way the violence is presented. Yeah, there’s inexplicable violence in some nursery rhymes and such, and while I don’t know that I can rationalize it in and of itself beyond what I’ve already said, I can say that not all depictions of violence are inherently equal. Okay, so Hansel and Gretl pushing the witch in the oven is a bit grisly; but in most tellings, that is literally the extent of it – a few words, often less than a sentence: “and Hansel and Gretl pushed the witch in the oven, ran out the door, and lived happily ever after.” Can you seriously tell me that that depiction of “roasting their tormentor” is no different than, say, watching that guy get burned alive in “Saw II”? Is “Three Blind Mice” the same as hearing a seeing a video of a guy being beheaded? Heck, it’s not even the same as the amputation scene in “Gone With the Wind,” and that’s pretty tame by today’s standards. Most of the abuse from wicked stepmothers that I can remember (the original version of Snow White aside) doesn’t go much further than making the kid do all the chores and not letting them go to the ball; is that the same as reading a realistic memoir of abuse, or seeing Joan Crawford beat her kids with wire hangers?
So no, I don’t think fairy tales are equivalent to exposing kids to violent movies and music. But hey, I’m not a psychologist – I freely admit all the above is just based on intuition and experience; can’t “prove” anything one way or the other.
(Oh, and the other obvious big difference is language: fairy tales and nursery rhymes never have curse words and racial slurs [at least not the way I heard 'em!], which also isn’t true of the music and movies in question. Someone on the other thread dismissed the idea that that should matter, but the fact is that we live in a society in which those words do offend the majority of people, especially when coming from little kids. Even if you’re fine with it, you’re doing your kid a disservice if you teach him that it’s okay to curse.)
*Kinda interesting the way that the tales of violence that kids read about often start long, long ago and work their way gradually up to the present. Fairy tales start in an indeterminately distant past. Then often come adventure stories set in specific times and places, but still many centuries ago (eg Robin Hood). A bit older and the kid might work his way up to gunslinger tales of the Old West (definite times and places, not too long ago, some moral ambiguity, mix of fact and fiction) or tales of battles in past wars (Johnny Tremain, Civil War stories). Eventually this might all lead up to comic books: an alternate present day, complex stories, etc.
**I should make clear throughout this and my other posts that I’m not slamming entire genres: for example, I’m talking about violent, misogynistic hip-hop, not hip-hop in and of itself. Heck, even Sesame Street uses hip-hop…
***Sorry if any of the above was rambling…rather overtired… 