# GAO report upholds Ohio vote fraud claims **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2005, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457 "2005-11-04T09:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/21 "2005-11-04T16:06:05Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > You do realize, don’t you, that he wasn’t talking about fraud? You obviously \*hope \* that’s true, but you have no way to be sure, do you? > [@](#): > > Simply saying what the Diebold guy said is certainly not an indication that he’s intending to commit fraud. It’s also certainly not proof that any fraud exists. Strawman. Nobody is claiming that it’s evidence, only that it’s probable cause for investigating. What’s your objection to that? > [@](#): > > I’m always amazed that liberals seem to think the only reason they keep losing elections is through fraud. If they keep up this whining about things then they will never get their act together and present a positive agenda for change to the American public. Boilerplate whining, right from the script. Meanwhile, the rest of us are discussing the importance of democracy itself. > [@Bricker](#): > > So what’s the plan to fix it? First step would be to make you acknowledge the possibility that there’s a problem. As long as there’s such firm resistance from you to even looking into it, there’s going to continue to be a festering problem with the legitimacy of the institutions, and more specifically to the legitimacy of the guys you put into office. But that’s not a problem; the losers just have to accept they’re losers and will always be losers, huh? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/22 "2005-11-04T16:10:10Z")
> [@Renob](#): > > You do realize, don’t you, that he wasn’t talking about fraud? When people say things like this they mean that they will do all they can by contributing money, helping get people to the polls, etc., to help deliver the state. Simply saying what the Diebold guy said is certainly not an indication that he’s intending to commit fraud. It’s also certainly not proof that any fraud exists. Your naive, sweet and innocent trusting nature has clearly led you astray. The Pubbies have a history of vote fraud. The governor of Ohio just too a nolo plea to monetary fraud. The Diebold prez and most of his officers are Republican partisans. The GAO says the Diebold machines are extremely vulnerable to fraudulent use, and they leave no paper trail. The Republicans SAY there’s nothing improper going on, but given all that HAS gone on, I’d be a fool to take them at their word. And I for one am not a fool. This goes WAAAAY beyond an appearance of irregularity. It’s all the way into stinking to high heaven. > [@](#): > > I’m always amazed that liberals seem to think the only reason they keep losing elections is through fraud. If they keep up this whining about things then they will never get their act together and present a positive agenda for change to the American public. I’d feel a lot worse about it if I didn’t have so many sound causes for suspicion. All you seem to have is name-calling and that river in Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/23 "2005-11-04T16:11:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You obviously \*hope \* that’s true, but you have no way to be sure, do you? Since there is no evidence of any vote fraud, I’m pretty sure. > [@](#): > > Strawman. Nobody is claiming that it’s evidence, only that it’s probable cause for investigating. What’s your objection to that? It certainly isn’t probable cause. It’s an innocent statement that shows no evidence to commit fraud. Probable cause comes when there is actual evidence of wrongdoing. There is none here and his statement certainly does not constitute evidence of intent to commit fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/24 "2005-11-04T16:13:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Right. "I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year’’ is not remotely similar. :rolleyes: Correct, it is not. Unless you are willing to concede that every instance of George Soros or Howard Dean saying similar things is conclusive proof that **they** engaged in voter fraud as well. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/25 "2005-11-04T16:13:23Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The Republicans SAY there’s nothing improper going on, but given all that HAS gone on, I’d be a fool to take them at their word. And I for one am not a fool. You have the same burden as anyone else advancing a proposition: you must provide evidence. The burden of proof rests with you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/26 "2005-11-04T16:19:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Correct, it is not. Unless you are willing to concede that every instance of George Soros or Howard Dean saying similar things is conclusive proof that **they** engaged in voter fraud as well. Don’t be so silly. A crime requires opportunity as well as motive. Soros and Dean did not have the opportunity, did they? > [@Bricker](#): > > The burden of proof rests with you. Ah, the old Bricker Standard of Evidence once again - your case must be proven beyond all possible doubt before beginning an _investigation_, depending on the target of course. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/27 "2005-11-04T16:25:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Don’t be so silly. A crime requires opportunity as well as motive. Soros and Dean did not have the opportunity, did they? There is no motive here, either. The guy wants to see Bush elected, but that does not mean he wants to break the law to see Bush elected. If you are saying that he is advocating breaking the law to elect Bush, you need to come up with a more explicit statement than the one he made. > [@](#): > > Ah, the old Bricker Standard of Evidence once again - your case must be proven beyond all possible doubt before beginning an _investigation_, depending on the target of course. Well, actually having solid evidence is a good start. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/28 "2005-11-04T16:27:16Z")
I hope it gets some traction in the national media & all. It’s a nasty security hole. Be that as it may, I have to admit that if I were planning on stealing the election in this fashion, I probably wouldn’t make an announcement to that effect. I do remember the “BlackBox” site / rumors though… if there’s any evidence that actual machine tampering did indeed take place, :o ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/29 "2005-11-04T16:34:38Z")
Maybe the Democrats can shut down the Senate again and demand an investigation into Ohio vote fraud. I can think of one Democratic Senator who might want to lead that charge. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The “liberal” media serves their corporate masters and the corporate masters make more profits with Republicans in control. I didn’t say anything about “liberal” media. A news outlet makes profit by scooping the other outlets. If there’s meat on this bone, one of the vultures will swoop in and start tugging on it. > [@](#): > > There is evidence of fraud in Ohio. There’s “evidence” for Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. > [@](#): > > I’d assemble it, but it would be the longest OP in the history of message boards. It would be more interesting if you assmbled actual proof, not just “evidence”. No need to assemble it all, just enough to demonstrate that Ohio should’ve gone to Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/30 "2005-11-04T16:45:10Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > It would be more interesting if you assmbled actual proof, not just “evidence”. No need to assemble it all, just enough to demonstrate that Ohio should’ve gone to Kerry. I’ll make a project of it. Don’t expect anything this month. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/31 "2005-11-04T16:55:59Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Your naive, sweet and innocent trusting nature has clearly led you astray. The Pubbies have a history of vote fraud. As someone with Liberal leanings, I sure hope we don’t condemn political parties because they have a history of vote fraud. 'Cause I think there have been some historical vote scandals of epic proportions over the years from the party I voted for last time. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/32 "2005-11-04T16:59:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I’ll make a project of it. Don’t expect anything this month. Don’t bother. Even if you assembled enough evident to convict the Diebold and some Ohio Repubs in a court of law, it wouldn’t be enough to lead some folks on this board to believe an investigation would be worthwhile. Their standards are rather high, where Republicans are concerned. Now, if a Democrat is rumored to have had a consensual blowjob, that’s a whole 'nother ball game! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/33 "2005-11-04T17:02:52Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > As someone with Liberal leanings, I sure hope we don’t condemn political parties because they have a history of vote fraud. 'Cause I think there have been some historical vote scandals of epic proportions over the years from the party I voted for last time. Well, yes, if ALL the rationale I had for wanting an investigation was a general suspicion of wrongdoing based on the sort of shenanigans that went on in Florida, I would have a weak hand indeed. But I listed all sorts of things beside that, you see. It’s just a contributing factor. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/34 "2005-11-04T17:19:47Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > The article doesn’t really support its own headline. Which makes it equivalent with this lame OP. What’s the feckin’ debate supposed to be, lissener? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/35 "2005-11-04T17:26:28Z")
I have a couple of questions to ask before I wade in as I think they will have a bearing on all this. First off, does anyone know the circumstances under which Diebold won the Ohio contract for providing electronic voting machines? Was Diebold responding to an RFP from the state, or did they present their machines as is in an unsolicitated bid? If they were responding to an RFP, anyone know where (or if) we could get ahold of it to look over what the states requirements were? Also, it would be good to see how closely what bid on and what they actually delivered…oh, and how close it was to the original RFP (assuming this is how it played out). My other question would be, obviously (according to the report I skimmed), the GAO has found some serious flaws in the electronic system used in Ohio. Has the GAO done a similar analysis of other voting systems (including the older mechanical ones)? If so, how does the security holes in the Ohio system compare to those in other systems? Finally, is there any firm evidence that there was indeed voter fraud? I didn’t see any in the report but I only skimmed through it as I’m in and out of meetings today. Simply pointing at security holes isn’t evidence that such fraud took place. But the same token, assuming such fraud did take place there should be some evidence since the report seemed to indicate most of the holes found were more brute force attack type holes (i.e. hacking into the network, using administrator access to modify the database, etc). -XT ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/36 "2005-11-04T17:26:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Don’t be so silly. A crime requires opportunity as well as motive. Soros and Dean did not have the opportunity, did they? Soros had the opportunity to piss away alot of money didn’t he… maybe their should be an investigation of all his offshore accounts and trusts set up to avoid the estate taxes he wants the rest of us to pay. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/37 "2005-11-04T17:38:03Z")
And that has what to do with elections in Ohio? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/38 "2005-11-04T18:16:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I have a couple of questions to ask before I wade in as I think they will have a bearing on all this. First off, does anyone know the circumstances under which Diebold won the Ohio contract for providing electronic voting machines? Was Diebold responding to an RFP from the state, or did they present their machines as is in an unsolicitated bid? If they were responding to an RFP, anyone know where (or if) we could get ahold of it to look over what the states requirements were? Also, it would be good to see how closely what bid on and what they actually delivered…oh, and how close it was to the original RFP (assuming this is how it played out). You can read the RFP issued by the Sec State of Ohio here (there are some amendments to the RFP which I have not linked): [http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/hava/votSysRFP052203.pdf](http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/hava/votSysRFP052203.pdf) You can read the independent test results of the Diebold equipment issued by the Sec State of Ohio here: [http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/hava/diebAsses041505.pdf](http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/hava/diebAsses041505.pdf) > [@](#): > > The assessment of the VVPAT device did not reveal any significant (or High) risks to the overall operation of the Diebold AccuVote-TSX Direct Recording Electronic (DRE) with VVPAT. As noted in the Potential Vulnerabilities & Recommended Mitigation Strategies section, Compuware recommends that appropriate policies and procedures be developed regarding the operation of the device at the voting locations. However, aside from the unit being somewhat cumbersome to operate (change paper, etc.), it performs the functions described by the vendor and meets the guidelines specified in the Standards for voter verified paper audit trail. Also: > [@](#): > > In summary, following execution of detailed testing and analysis, Compuware has determined that the DRE with VVPAT and GEMS server performed functions as expected and in a secure manner. > [@](#): > > My other question would be, obviously (according to the report I skimmed), the GAO has found some serious flaws in the electronic system used in Ohio. The GAO report linked by QuizCustodet deals with electronic voting across the entire nation. Ohio is mentioned specifically only one time in the body of the report. All other instances of the text strin “Ohio” which appear in the GAC report are in the bibliography. The claim in the OP and the assertion in the news article linked by lissener are not supportable by the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/39 "2005-11-04T18:22:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And that has what to do with elections in Ohio? Soros had motive, means, and opportunity to spend his money on bribes for voters. He is already on record as wanting to see Kerry win the election, which is clear proof of his intent to commit fraud. And he could have done it. Ergo, he is guilty. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/40 "2005-11-04T18:22:49Z")
Thanks much UncleBeer! I appreciate the data and the links. I had just found a link to the RFP but for some reason the google link wasn’t working for me while yours does. So, this went through standard procurement process with a test and acceptance phase by the government. That tells me a lot in itself. > [@UncleBeer](#): > > The GAO report linked by QuizCustodet deals with electronic voting across the entire nation. Ohio is mentioned specifically only one time in the body of the report. All other instances of the text strin “Ohio” which appear in the GAC report are in the bibliography. As I said, I only skimmed it briefly. I’m not surprised that lissener take on the results are an exaggeration though. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457.md?page=3)