# GAO report upholds Ohio vote fraud claims **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2005, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457 "2005-11-04T09:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/41 "2005-11-04T18:24:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hard investigative work? Of course. > > “GAO report upholds Ohio vote fraud claims” ? > > Not so much. > > “GAO Report Shows Need For Stronger Investigation” ? > > Sure. Like a Grand Jury Investigation? With some of them there subpoenas and search warrants and everything? Please? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/42 "2005-11-04T18:24:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Ergo, he is guilty. And notice that our friends the Democrats have failed to condemn him, thus showing their hypocrisy for vote fraud. I haven’t heard so much as one call from Democrats for a Soros investigation! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/43 "2005-11-04T18:25:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I COULD sneak into house tonight, bash your sleeping head in, and have sex with your goldfish before I leave. Your house is not well-secured. > > That hardly warrants accusing me of the crime. But, Your Honor, nobody has sex with goldfish! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/44 "2005-11-04T18:25:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I COULD sneak into house tonight, bash your sleeping head in, and have sex with your goldfish before I leave. Your house is not well-secured. > > That hardly warrants accusing me of the crime. My house is locked, I sleep lightly, and I am a firm upholder of the second amendment. Furthermore, thanks to the traditional horizontal storage philosophy of the adult geek, attempting to gain access to my bed is hazardous with the lights on, let alone in the dark. And I have no goldfish… wait, no, I do, and they’re snacks. Ew. Creamy pizza goldfish crackers. You don’t have the means or the opportunity. You do have a motive (to prove me wrong) Mr. Diebold has a means (owns the company) a motive (deliver the election to Bush) and an opportunity (owns the company). These are significant differences in the situations. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/45 "2005-11-04T18:26:58Z")
Oh, this doesn’t mean he’s done it, but as a computer professional, his company’s behavior is all kinds of untrustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/46 "2005-11-04T18:26:59Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Like a Grand Jury Investigation? With some of them there subpoenas and search warrants and everything? > > Please? Sure. I wouldn’t object to a grand jury investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/47 "2005-11-04T18:28:57Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Mr. Diebold has a means (owns the company) a motive (deliver the election to Bush) and an opportunity (owns the company). > > These are significant differences in the situations. No. Merely having means, motive, and opportunity are NOT enough to accuse someone of committing a crime. You have to have evidence that they actually DID something. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/48 "2005-11-04T18:34:54Z")
Wouldn’t a good first step being showing that an actual crime was committed? -XT ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/49 "2005-11-04T18:38:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Merely having means, motive, and opportunity are NOT enough to accuse someone of committing a crime. You have to have evidence that they actually DID something. Um, yes they are. They’re enough to ACCUSE; you have to have evidence to CONVICT. The standard for indictment/accusation/whatever is not “beyond a reasonable doubt.” THat’s up to a jury or a judge. Sheesh, don’t nobody watch “Law & Order” any more? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/50 "2005-11-04T18:44:32Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Um, yes they are. They’re enough to ACCUSE; you have to have evidence to CONVICT. The standard for indictment/accusation/whatever is not “beyond a reasonable doubt.” THat’s up to a jury or a judge. > > Sheesh, don’t nobody watch “Law & Order” any more? IANAL and IDWL&O, but unless I am mistaken, you need evidence to convene a grand jury. Got any? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/51 "2005-11-04T18:56:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Merely having means, motive, and opportunity are NOT enough to accuse someone of committing a crime. You have to have evidence that they actually DID something. Will you please quit misrepresenting what you’re being told? There is no (credible) accusation of a crime here, there’s simply a demand for a credible _investigation_. The standard is probable cause. Do you deny it’s present? > [@Shodan](#): > > Soros had motive, means, and opportunity to spend his money on bribes for voters. All of whom, assuming that were true, could still vote as they damn well pleased, in the true tradition of democracy. There likewise is _no_ cause, probable or otherwise, to think he did so. Not the case with Diebold. You’re trying awfully hard for _this_ tu quoque, gotta give you credit for persistence. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/52 "2005-11-04T18:58:55Z")
Evidence: for starters – [An article from Harper’s Magazine](http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptNoneDare.html) > [@](#): > > The Washington Post reported that in Mahoning County “25 electronic machines transferred an unknown number of Kerry votes to the Bush column,” but it did not think to ask why. [link](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:QA-iazCjQncJ:www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/996+Ohio+%22vote+fraud%22+2004+evidence&hl=en) There are many links to other articles about vote fraud in Ohio in 2004 on the side column. Gentlemen, start your investigations! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/53 "2005-11-04T19:03:01Z")
The cites I provided claim that almost all of the “mistakes” that were made in the Ohio count took votes away from Kerry. That alone would be convincing evidence that a crime was committed, AFAIC. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/54 "2005-11-04T19:23:16Z")
Those poor, poor, goldfish! You fiends! ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/55 "2005-11-04T19:30:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Thanks much UncleBeer! I appreciate the data and the links. I had just found a link to the RFP but for some reason the google link wasn’t working for me while yours does. So, this went through standard procurement process with a test and acceptance phase by the government. That tells me a lot in itself. > > As I said, I only skimmed it briefly. I’m not surprised that lissener take on the results are an exaggeration though. > > -XT Most likely, he hasn’t read the GAO report. Or skimmed it. Or seen it. Or even looked for it. He’s probably read the news story, which appears to be from a quite biased source, but I’d bet dollars to donuts, that is the extent of his readings. Hell, he may not have even read the damn thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/56 "2005-11-04T19:41:05Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Evidence: for starters – > > [An article from Harper’s Magazine](http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptNoneDare.html) > > [link](http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:QA-iazCjQncJ:www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/996+Ohio+%22vote+fraud%22+2004+evidence&hl=en) There are many links to other articles about vote fraud in Ohio in 2004 on the side column. > > Gentlemen, start your investigations! Start as many investigations as you want. Knock yourself out. Take this to the courts, get Congress to jump all over it. Just quit bitching about it! Exactly how many Democtatic Senators are calling for an investigation again? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/57 "2005-11-04T20:03:55Z")
Where was this “wait and see” skepticism from the right when we were talking about Saddam’s WMD stockpiles? > [@John Mace](#): > > Exactly how many Democtatic Senators are calling for an investigation again? Dunno about the Senate, but the [House Democrats](http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/01/house-democrats-request-joint.html) haven’t been sitting idly: > [@](#): > > John Conyers, Jr. > Stephanie Tubbs Jones > Jesse Jackson, Jr. > Jim McDermott > Maxine Waters > Lynn Woolsey > Bernard Sanders > Eleanor H. Norton > Sam Farr > Chaka Fattah > Donald Payne > Anthony Weiner > Diane Watson > Barbara Lee > Elijah Cummings > Robert Wexler > Juanita Millender-McDonald > José E. Serrano > Major Owens > Danny K. Davis > Dennis J. Kucinich > Sheila Jackson Lee > William Clay, Jr. > Barney Frank Conyers, particularly, seems to be [the front guy](http://www.truthout.org/cblog.shtml) on this effort. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/58 "2005-11-04T20:09:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Will you please quit misrepresenting what you’re being told? There is no (credible) accusation of a crime here, there’s simply a demand for a credible _investigation_. The standard is probable cause. Do you deny it’s present? Yes. It is not present. Except in your imagination. And the standard is not “probable cause”; it is “some level of reasonable evidence”. That’s the standard you have failed to achieve. > [@](#): > > All of whom, assuming that were true, could still vote as they damn well pleased, in the true tradition of democracy. There likewise is _no_ cause, probable or otherwise, to think he did so. Not the case with Diebold. Well, obviously it is just as likely that Soros committed election fraud as that Diebold did, based on the standards as you apply them. And I am not using a _tu quoque_; you are attempting to use a case of special pleading. Election fraud doesn’t always count; only when it is not committed by Democrats. Manufacturing an accusation based on no evidence, and then meeting every request for real data with logical fallacies and hand-waving. Business as usual on the fringes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/59 "2005-11-04T20:09:16Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Dunno about the Senate, but the [House Democrats](http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/01/house-democrats-request-joint.html) haven’t been sitting idly: Where’d that list come from-- a who’s who of the nuttiest Congresscritters? I specifically said Senators because the House has so many wingnuts that I don’t pay attention to much coming from that body. And, IIRC, there is one particular Senator who would have a very strong interst in knowing the truth. Remember him? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457/60 "2005-11-04T20:12:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes. It is not present. Except in your imagination. Horse, water. > [@](#): > > And I am not using a _tu quoque_; you are attempting to use a case of special pleading. Election fraud doesn’t always count; only when it is not committed by Democrats. :rolleyes: Got any examples of Democratic fraud you’d like us to discuss here? What, you don’t? Okay, fair enough, it’s not tu quoque if you can’t even point to a quo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gao-report-upholds-ohio-vote-fraud-claims/329457.md?page=4)