# Gardening Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 5, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447 "2008-02-05T23:15:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/41 "2008-02-06T21:48:18Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] Really, the issue here is not whether it’s long-term cost-effective to garden, but rather it’s a cash-flow issue. Sure, it may be cheaper to buy a bag of Birdseye zucchini, but if you don’t have the cash to do so, you’re S.O.L. No zucchini may be procured. [/quote] How realistic is it that someone who doesn’t have enough cash to buy zuchini could afford to spend at some other time over $100 on gardening supplies. > [@](#): > > But you planted all the seeds, and you’ve got 20 plants, so you’ve got $8,000 worth of zucchini. I’m not sure about your math here, but let’s say this is true. At some point well below your maximum amount of zucchini you’re going to get pretty sick of it. The law of diminishing returns as it applies to a desire to eat the same food applies. As I mentioned, our garden produced a ton of cucumbers (over fifty, if I recall correctly). It’s great having a new cucumber in the garden every day, but not many people eat a cucumber a day. And if you do, you become sick of them after a while. So you may indeed produce a lot of food but you may not have either the desire or the capability of eating it. Of course, if you have friends you can pawn off some of the food on them so it doesn’t go to waste. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/42 "2008-02-06T22:14:46Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] How realistic is it that someone who doesn’t have enough cash to buy zuchini could afford to spend at some other time over $100 on gardening supplies. I’m not sure about your math here, but let’s say this is true. At some point well below your maximum amount of zucchini you’re going to get pretty sick of it. The law of diminishing returns as it applies to a desire to eat the same food applies. As I mentioned, our garden produced a ton of cucumbers (over fifty, if I recall correctly). It’s great having a new cucumber in the garden every day, but not many people eat a cucumber a day. And if you do, you become sick of them after a while. So you may indeed produce a lot of food but you may not have either the desire or the capability of eating it. Of course, if you have friends you can pawn off some of the food on them so it doesn’t go to waste. [/QUOTE] I don’t even know how I’d spend $100 on garden supplies, and like I said I don’t grow a lot of stuff from seed. For my garden I get free compost from our garbage collection company (they give out bags once a year) from my composter and from the barn. (I reiterate that horse manure is free and it doesn’t smell. Keep it in black plastic bags before you use it.) I spray Miracle-Gro (not very expensive) and I need some Sluggo, since we have lots of snails. That’s about it. I definitely profit every year, and in California veggies are fairly cheap at the farmer’s market. I’m assuming a borrowed roto-tiller. After ten years of working on my soil, I can get it ready with a shovel now. The first few years I needed one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/43 "2008-02-06T22:22:44Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] Unless you’ve got zucchini growing in the back yard. Big Box O’ Miracle Gro for Veg: $5.00 Packet zucchini seeds: $0.10 Tiller rental: $50.00 [/quote] 0, since she’s going to borrow it. > [@](#): > > Gas for tiller: $3.00 > Big Shaker O’ Pyrethrum Bug Dust: $5.00 > Trowel: $1.00 > Garden gloves: $1.00 > Newspapers for mulch, 8 Sunday papers: $16.00 ??? Save up a few weeks worth, or get papers from friends. Just before recycling day you can get all the papers you need for free. > [@](#): > > 10 bags of composted steer manure: $30.00 Or find a stable and get it for free. > [@](#): > > Plastic containers for freezing veg: $30.00 We use plastic freezer bags. Much cheaper. > [@](#): > > I make that $141.10. Assuming enough bags is $10, I took $116 off this total without even trying. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/44 "2008-02-06T22:35:21Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] Let’s see… the plan is to BORROW a tiller. Chemical garden fertilizer is cheap The first year I’ll probably get a crop even without fertilizer or compost. I’m not looking at squeezing max production out of the land. Seeds are cheap, maybe I’ll even get a few for free. How can it be “impossible” to come out ahead? It would take some planning, yes, but I don’t see it as “impossible”. When I was a kid we did this and we did, indeed, save money. Just how much time do you think I’ll be in the garden? This is NOT intended to be a small farm. I spend time out back anyway. It won’t be a picture-perfect garden, but so what? I think there’s an issue here between what certain people think is a minimal outlay of equipment and stuff and what actually is a minimum. [/QUOTE] Don’t let them scare you. You definitely can come out ahead. I own a tiller but I seldom use it, since mulching cuts down on most of the weeds between rows, and I use a trowel to get the rest, close to the plants. I’d rather not rip up the plants by mistake. Except for the original digging, most of it might be hard on the knees, but not all that much work. BTW, if you have sod, I’d be dubious about the carrots. I grew them in NJ in excellent soil, and was disappointed. I mostly did it because we owned a bunny who loved the tops. I’ve never grown turnips, but the rest of the stuff is reasonable. BTW, spinach bolts also. Here in the Bay Area we’ve grown celery, onions, and potatoes over the winter. You won’t be able to. The potatoes were free - we had some nice new, red potatoes which were left too long, and sprouted. I cut them in half and planted them. We later read that they are treated so they won’t grow, happily no one told the potatoes that and we just got a very nice harvest. A lot of this stuff wants to grow. I often get volunteer spaghetti squash, just from seeds in my compost. It might take a few years to find what stuff likes your garden, and to fix the soil, but you win big in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/45 "2008-02-06T23:46:48Z")
> [@](#): > > How realistic is it that someone who doesn’t have enough cash to buy zuchini could afford to spend at some other time over $100 on gardening supplies. Well, (A) it doesn’t have to be spent all at one fell swoop. You buy fertilizer this week, bug spray next week. That filters it into the family budget a little at a time. And (B) as pointed out, a lot of it is reusable, so that makes it an “investment”, not the same thing as a simple “expense”. It was just a back-of-the-envelope sort of thing, not intended as a worksheet to take to the bank for a loan or anything. 😃 And of _course_ she’s going to get sick of zucchini. That’s how it goes, when you grow stuff. You get periodically swamped with squash, or green onions, or string beans, or apples. That’s how “harvesting” worked before we had a global food industry to bring us a carefully metered supply of what are basically out-of-season delicacies, like zucchini in December courtesy of Birdseye. In earlier eras, something came ripe in the garden, you picked like mad, brought it inside, stored it, and the next week something else came ripe and you did it all over again. When you have a garden, you can’t expect to have a carefully balanced supply of a wide assortment of veg. You get what will grow, and what the bugs don’t eat, and sometimes you get it by the truckload. But through the magic of modern food preservation technology, she can sock away all that nauseatingly overabundant zucchini, until next December, when she hasn’t had zucchini for four months and is ready for it again. So since she’s going to freeze it, it doesn’t matter if she gets sick of the sight of it, since it’s all going in the freezer. You got sick of your cukes because you weren’t making pickles with them. 😉 If you’d chosen a different crop that **could** be preserved and tucked away in the basement to give you that fulfilling sense of providing for your family, you’d have been delighted to be inundated with, say, string beans, or tomatoes. * * * My experience with getting free manure from stables is that it’s already all spoken for, and there ain’t any to be had. YMMV, of course. Plastic freezer bags work fine–but since money is tight, I budgeted for reusable tupperware, unless she feels like frugally rinsing out and reusing her freezer baggies. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/46 "2008-02-06T23:51:28Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] It might take a few years to find what stuff likes your garden, and to fix the soil, but you win big in the long run. [/QUOTE] Right - my (admittedly limited) experience suggests that both garden and gardener require a few years to produce their best. But the deep satisfaction of home-grown veggies is available from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/47 "2008-02-07T00:16:17Z")
The budgeting I see here, shows that some people do not know how to garden within a strict budget. They list things that may be handy, but are not necessary. The possessions I do not loan out and hang onto like they’re gold are a good spading fork, good spading shovel, good trowel, a handed down spring steel hand weeder, and a loop hoe. I have other things that are very useful, but I’d lend them to a person I trusted. Magnesium doesn’t migrate out of the soil much, so don’t keep applying it yearly, it will reach toxic levels over time. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/48 "2008-02-07T01:05:31Z")
I have not read the whole thread, so if I’m repeating advice already offered, I apologize. First: do not use a rototiller. A rototiller will break up the weeds and many weeds will merely multiply by being torn up. Couch grass, for instance, will send up a new plant from a piece of root only a couple of inches long. A rototiller will not till deep enough, either. Second: You may, if you wish, remove the sod. But do not discard it, make it the first layer of your compost pile. Grass will not “turn” and grow, if you put it upside down, it will die and rot. Other plants may not. But a good compost pile gets hot enough to kill weeds and their seeds. Third: Get yourself a good shovel and go to work and double dig your plot. [Double digging.](http://www.wikihow.com/Double-Dig-a-Garden). There are dozens of other sites that can tell you the same thing. I have done this several times and it is the best possible way to go. You don’t need to do it all at once, you can take a week or so over it. Whilst digging, dig in any compost or manure you can get. Most garden stores will be able to tell you where you can get your soil tested. But do not take the garden store’s advice as to all the chemicals you “need” to buy. Somewhere in your area there will be a garden club, maybe even an organic garden club, and those are the people you want to talk to. I have been growing a vegetable garden nearly all my life, first as a child helping my Mum and on my own farm for 42 years. I seldom, very seldom, use any chemical except I do use slug bait because I live in the Slug Capital of the Universe and if I didn’t use slug bait at the beginning of the season I would have no garden. Other gardeners, or your county agent, will be able to tell you what plants and varieties do best in your area. Mulch is your friend. Nearly anything will do for mulch: old newspapers, chipped tree branches, landscape fabric. Find a corner to set up your compost pile. Some cities even provide plastic composters free. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/49 "2008-02-07T03:51:31Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] I never had a problem with lettuce or radishes bolting [/quote] I’m sorry, but “bolting” makes me think of the little plants pulling themselves free of the soil and running down the road. 😃 > [@](#): > > If you want radishes and lettuce, just plant them early and figure on them being basically “done” by the end of May. What part of Illinois do you live in? Around here the freeze danger isn’t completely gone until mid to late May. Of course, that’s just a matter of adjusting planting to local seasonal variation. > [@](#): > > You can re-plant in August or September for fall crops. Yes. My roses usually stop blooming around early July due to heat stress, but they start up again in the fall and this year were blooming at Thanksgiving (they’re on the south side of the building, which holds heat and makes a little micro-climate). > [@](#): > > I’ve never grown bok choy, but I dunno why you wouldn’t be able to grow it. I did a little research on it today, apparently it, too, favors cool weather. Well, in that case I’ll do the cool weathers early and simply not attempt to grow them in the hot part of summer. Maybe re-seed in September. > [@](#): > > Big Box O’ Miracle Gro for Veg: $5.00 > Packet zucchini seeds: $0.10 Ten cents? I usually see seeds at a higher price. Perhaps I should shop around a bit more, or order by mail. > [@](#): > > Tiller rental: $50.00 If I can borrow one, not such a problem. If I can’t - I might opt for a smaller garden and only dig up a small amount of backyard per day. > [@](#): > > Big Shaker O’ Pyrethrum Bug Dust: $5.00 > Trowel: $1.00 > Garden gloves: $1.00 I already own a trowel and I have two pairs to gardening gloves - I’ve been doing flowers for years, after all. > [@](#): > > Newspapers for mulch, 8 Sunday papers: $16.00 Why buy newspapers? I could use an old white pages. Or go down to the local paper recycling bins by the grocery store - they’re usually overflowing. I’m sure it wouldn’t be a problem for me to nick a few papers while I’m passing by anyway. > [@](#): > > 10 bags of composted steer manure: $30.00 Nice, but not required. > [@](#): > > Plastic containers for freezing veg: $30.00 I already have LOTS of bags for freezing - we use them a lot for lots of things, and stocked up before our economic downturn. My budget looks a lot leaner than yours. > [@](#): > > If you plant all the seeds in the packet, you’ll get about 20 zucchini plants. Plant 20 zucchini? Are you nuts? I’ll plant ONE. _Maybe_ two. I won’t have room for more than that, not and have other veggies. I won’t consume more than what one or two plants can produce. I won’t have room to store that many. It would be foolish to overproduce to that extent. As I said - I am NOT starting a small farm! I’d much rather under-produce this year and expand next. The aim is NOT to suck every possible food molecule out of the garden. It is to _supplement_ the other food sources I have. > [@](#): > > And the cost above is initial outlay, but you’ll keep all of it except the seeds, the newspapers, and the tiller rental for more than one gardening season. The tupperware is reusable. And if you buy a Mantis mini-tiller, which run about $300, once you get the initial tilling of the sod done with the behemoth, you’ll use the Mantis every spring to prepare the garden and cultivate, and you’ll spread out the cost of that mini-tiller over six years. I am not buying a tiller. If I have $300 to spend I’ll invest in a chest freezer in which to store not only produce from the garden but food from sales and bulk purchases that includes meat and fish. After all, there’s no point to this without storage capability. Here’s how I see it: Rock bottom low-effort gardening would mean buying a pack of bell pepper seeds, poking a few holes in the ground, planting them, occasional watering, and letting them fend for themselves. Given that multi-colored peppers are running $3/lb in this area, even if I get only 1 or 2 peppers from, say, six surviving plants I STILL come out ahead money wise. Cripes, people act like plants won’t grow without constant attention. They will, really. My roses go nuts despite my neglect - or maybe because of it. I inherited a strawberry patch from the Crazy Upstairs Gardener. It has not been fertilized or protected from poachers for years, yet I usually get a quart or two of berries out of it despite squirrels, rabbits, neighbors, etc. - it’s basically free food. I may not produce prize-winning vegetables or great quantities of them - but that’s OK. I’m looking at some harvest for minimal effort. It’s not a contest. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/50 "2008-02-07T03:53:29Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] How realistic is it that someone who doesn’t have enough cash to buy zuchini could afford to spend at some other time over $100 on gardening supplies. [/quote] As I said - I already own some supplies as I have had a flower garden for quite some time now. Also, I view some of the items listed as optional. > [@](#): > > At some point well below your maximum amount of zucchini you’re going to get pretty sick of it. That’s what the freezer and dehydrator is for. Also, I do expect the neighbors and landlord will nick a few. I do expect I’ll have some loss. If one or two vegetables fail entirely I’ll be disappointed, but not unduly upset. I fully expect others to produce. I do not expect perfection in these endeavors. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/51 "2008-02-07T07:47:52Z")
[QUOTE=vison] Third: Get yourself a good shovel and go to work and double dig your plot. [Double digging.](http://www.wikihow.com/Double-Dig-a-Garden). There are dozens of other sites that can tell you the same thing. [/QUOTE] Warning: double digging is hard work. I saw a nice video that explained it - you know the type where the gardener starts, they cut, and he is done, without any sweat? Not in real life. 🙂 However I agree about the weeds. I removed the weeds before I tilled, and put them in my green can, not my compost pile. Then I tilled to break up the soil. BTW, plant 2 or 3 zucchini plants, just in case one gets sick. And start looking for recipes now. Some of our eight ball squash got lost behind some leaves - when I found it it one was ten inches in diameter. We cut it open, hollowed it out, steamed it, and put a mixture of ground beef, spaghetti sauce and squash insides in the bowl, which we could eat. Kind of like a bread bowl, but all veggie. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/52 "2008-02-07T14:22:56Z")
[hijack]You know, if you’re in strapped financial circumstances, I’d recommend that you find a copy of _The Tightwad Gazette_ by Amy Dacyzyn and give it a look. Some of the info is a bit out of date these days, and there’s a lot about how to save money with kids, but you can just skip the parts that don’t apply. There are some great ideas in there. I go back and re-read it every so often just to get re-motivated. Most libraries should have a copy. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/53 "2008-02-07T14:48:17Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] What part of Illinois do you live in? Around here the freeze danger isn’t completely gone until mid to late May. [/quote] Central Illinois. See “Springfield” on the map, just to the right of it, looking a tad defensive. 😃 Our technical frost date is May 20, but radishes and lettuce (and other cold-tolerant crops like spinach) don’t mind frost; in these h’yar parts you plant them in March whenever you feel like it if the soil’s not actually frozen solid and isn’t too sodden to work; if you had the forethought to prepare your planting beds last fall, you can just go squishing out there in your garden shoes in between the ice storms and poke the seeds into the nasty mud. I planted peas once during the last week of February, and they came up just fine. It doesn’t hurt radish and lettuce seeds to sit there in chilly mud for a while until things warm up enough to let them germinate. > [@](#): > > Ten cents? I usually see seeds at a higher price. Perhaps I should shop around a bit more, or order by mail. Even as I speak, my Walgreens has seed packets 10 for a dollar. Depending on what fell off the truck at your store, of course. ETA: Dollar Tree also usually has cheap seeds. > [@](#): > > Why buy newspapers? If you’re like us and refuse to subscribe to a local gossip rag masquerading as a news outlet. 😃 > [@](#): > > Plant 20 zucchini? Are you nuts? Well, it was kinda rhetorical. 😃 > [@](#): > > The aim is NOT to suck every possible food molecule out of the garden. It is to _supplement_ the other food sources I have. I had the mental image from your OP of you looking like [this,](http://lakelandschools.org/wphs/erichsen/grapesofwrath/grapes%20images/aa_lange_power_2_e.jpg) desperately struggling to feed your starving family. Glad to know you’re not trying to stave off starvation, only trying to cut down on your contributions to Vestar Capital’s quarterly statements. 😃 Part of me _wants_ to see you grow 20 zucchini plants. I’m evil, I know it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Snowcarpet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowcarpet/32/257_2.png) [@Snowcarpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowcarpet)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/54 "2008-02-07T15:15:18Z")
Just wanted to chime in that about any “dollar store” will have the 10-cent packs, Dollar General seems to have the most around here. Last year Wal-Mart had 30-cent packs if you strike out elsewhere. Also, I’ve been practicing this method of gardening for a few years, with no sort of special fanfare or anything: > **[Ruth Stout’s System for Gardening – Mother Earth News](https://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/ruth-stouts-system-for-gardening-zmaz04fmzsel/)** > > Learn how to use mulch to cut down on weeding and heavy labor in your garden by using the Ruth Stout gardening method. It’s not really a system, as it’s more a lazy, broken-bodied approach. Don’t till and toil. Mulch. Then mulch some more. Find out who sells broken bales of hay, wet hay, broken bags of mulch, etc. Or find out who has organic material to spare for free (make friends.) Put down a generous layer of newspapers if you can get 'em. Weeds don’t stand a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Ferns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90ced4/32.png) [@Ferns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferns)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/55 "2008-02-07T16:54:42Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] A nice idea, but I’d have to buy something with which to construct the boxes, then buy this guy’s “mix”. I admit I’m doing this on the cheap - which I have to. [/QUOTE] Hold on! You don’t “buy Mel’s Mix”. If you would just read the site a little more carefully, you can see that the mix is a RECIPE, not something you _buy_ from him. It’s just a SUGGESTION. Just dig out some native soil and amend it as well as yo can afford. If you don’t want to spend a single dime, avoid bags of soil amendments at Lowes, and instead scrounge some manure, compost, whatever from around your community. And you don’t have to spend a dime on the wood for the boxes either. Use scrap wood, disassembled pallets, whatever. I’ve done Square Foot Gardening in the past, all I spent money on was seeds. Oh, and a $5.00 box of Miracle-Gro. I had a fantastic yeild and NO backbreaking “tilling”. You do NOT need a rototiller! ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/56 "2008-02-07T17:51:09Z")
I have raised lettuce in a cold frame in Wisconsin through the winter. I sprouted it in the fall, and it grew slowly in the winter, and by the beginning of March it was producing nicely. At the end of march it was 10 times what we could use. The only thing I needed to do was add water occasionally, pick leaves, and keep the snow off the plastic. I used the same type of cold frame to start plants last spring. This of course is no good for tomatoes or the like in February. Lettuce, radishes. and spinach once sprouted can survive a snow fall and below freezing weather. They need warmer weather to sprout than to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/57 "2008-02-27T02:56:07Z")
I realize this is somewhat an act of necromancy, but it is a continuation of this thread… I’ve decided on a 10 x 10 foot plot. When the snow melts out back I’ll mark off the square and subdivide it into 1 x 1 squares. I’ll dig out the squares one by one. I should be able to get through a couple of those a day and though it will be slow I will be able to get it done by hand (if we get ahold of a tiller that changes things, of course). I’ll organize it so I’ll get a 1 x 10 row down first, then move on to the next. That way, I can start sowing cold-tolerant crops while still working on the ground if that seems prudent. Also, I can stop early with, say, a 5 x 10 plot if I decide that’s enough to start. Or maybe I’ll do three strips of 2 x 10 with 1 foot wide paths between them. But, basically, I’m looking at a _max_ of 100 square feet. Here is my list of items: Lettuce Spinach Radishes Onions Turnips Bok choy (if I can get seeds) Bell peppers Beans - green and wax (I’ll plant them next to fence so they can climb it if they want) Chickpeas (again, if I can get them - we eat this, too) Parsley My understanding is that most of them are actually cold-tolerant crops - should I consider hot weather items for that July/August interval, or just put up with a hiatus and replant end of August for fall crops? Opinions? So far, the best price I’ve seen for seeds is $1.29/packet - although there is a gardening store near me that lets you buy loose seed in any quantity you want, from tiny to huge. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/58 "2008-02-27T05:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] When the snow melts out back I’ll…dig out the squares one by one. [/quote] Oops, no–you start digging when the snow melts, and the soil is dry enough to work without its forming into clay mudballs. If you work soil when it’s too wet, you totally destroy its structure, since mashing it together destroys the teeny spaces between the soil particles that allow air and water to percolate down through it, and you end up with compacted clay which can takes years of fixing with compost and soil amendments–that’s if you’re lucky, and patient. Wait until it’s dry enough that when you pick up a handful, you can crumble it back onto the ground. “Moist” is okay; “wet” is not. If it mooshes together into a permanent mudball, it’s still too wet. Depending on whether we get a wet spring, we’re talking about digging in April, _possibly_ March, but not merely “when the snow melts”. …which is why people use tillers. By the time the soil is dry enough to work, the clock is counting down towards “planting time”, gotta get those cool-season seeds in there before it gets too hot–which will be in May–when you won’t be able to keep them watered because it’s up in the 90s already, and the radishes almost immediately will turn hot and woody. And if it was a rainy March and April, and you have a largish plot to double-dig, you just won’t get it done in time, unless you’ve got Kal-El of Krypton pushing the spade. Hence the tiller. This is also why people who wanna grow early cool-season crops prepare their seedbeds the previous fall. Then all they have to do is stroll out there when the snow does melt, and gingerly poke the seeds into the mud. But you don’t have that advantage this year, so you may not get many radishes, is all. > [@](#): > > My understanding is that most of them are actually cold-tolerant crops - should I consider hot weather items for that July/August interval, or just put up with a hiatus and replant end of August for fall crops? Opinions? The beans and the bell peppers are your warm-weather crops. Normally the July-August slot is taken up by tomatoes and summer squash, but since you’re not doing those, yeah, you’ll have kind of a hiatus there. Give you time to deal with crabgrass. 😃 The chickpeas are also a warm-weather crop. I have never grown them, but my understanding is that since there are only a couple of seeds in each pod, you have to grow an awful lot of square footage of them in order to get useful amounts, and that since they take 100 days to mature, basically they’re taking up a lot of room all summer for very little return. Personally, I’d stick to growing things that the modern food industry can’t, or won’t, produce in wholesale lots. > [@](#): > > So far, the best price I’ve seen for seeds is $1.29/packet - although there is a gardening store near me that lets you buy loose seed in any quantity you want, from tiny to huge. My Walgreens Sunday flyer (Feb. 24 - March 1) (not the mid-week one that comes out on Wednesday) that I just brought home from work on Saturday night is running a coupon on page 7 for seed packets, 10/$1. It runs through this Saturday night, expires next Sunday morning. Interesting fact: if you’re on Illinois food stamps, seeds are covered. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/59 "2008-02-27T06:31:40Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] Bok choy (if I can get seeds) [/QUOTE] If you have trouble getting Bok Choy seeds, let me know. I live in the Bay Area, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen some. All the farmers’ markets here sell it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447/60 "2008-02-27T12:48:08Z")
[QUOTE=Duck Duck Goose] Oops, no–you start digging when the snow melts, and the soil is dry enough to work without its forming into clay mudballs. [/quote] That’s what I _meant_ - I’ll mark it off when the ground is bare, then dig it when it’s reasonably dry. And I know you keep saying “clay”, but trust me - that’s not possible here. I’m right next to Lake Michigan, 10,000 years ago where I live used to be a beach. Our sub-soil is sand, not clay. But yeah, you don’t want to mess with that when it’s soggy, either. > [@](#): > > My Walgreens Sunday flyer (Feb. 24 - March 1) (not the mid-week one that comes out on Wednesday) that I just brought home from work on Saturday night is running a coupon on page 7 for seed packets, 10/$1. It runs through this Saturday night, expires next Sunday morning. I"ll have to check out my local Walgreen’s [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gardening-questions/436447.md?page=4)