# \*gasp!\* Cuban Model might not be working? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141 "2010-09-09T03:25:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/21 "2010-09-09T14:23:57Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > The American model is not working so well either. Same for the Dubai model. > > Which way are the refugees going? I dunno about refugees, but [a lot of undocumented immigrants are going back to Mexico.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,409221,00.html) All on their own. Because they can’t find work here. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/22 "2010-09-09T14:38:45Z")
Would the Cuban model have fared better without the US economic blockade? If the rest of the world refused to trade with America, I imagine you’d be pretty well f\*cked economically, no? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/23 "2010-09-09T14:41:46Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Would the Cuban model have fared better without the US economic blockade? > > If the rest of the world refused to trade with America, I imagine you’d be pretty well f\*cked economically, no? Nitpick: It’s an embargo. A blockade would be if American ships patrolled Cuban waters and tried to stop **any** country’s ships from entering or leaving. We haven’t done that since the Cuban Missile Crisis. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/24 "2010-09-09T14:46:29Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > The American model is not working so well either. Same for the Dubai model. > > Which way are the refugees going? We have access closed off, so it has to be one way. Apparently we fear allowing our people to go there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/25 "2010-09-09T14:48:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Wallenstein](#): > > > > Would the Cuban model have fared better without the US economic blockade? > > > > If the rest of the world refused to trade with America, I imagine you’d be pretty well f\*cked economically, no? > > Nitpick: It’s an embargo. A blockade would be if American ships patrolled Cuban waters and tried to stop **any** country’s ships from entering or leaving. We haven’t done that since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Not only that, but the rest of the world does trade with Cuba. Most of it, anyway. The US has nothing to do with the failure of the Cuban economic system. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/26 "2010-09-09T14:49:12Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Would the Cuban model have fared better without the US economic blockade? > > If the rest of the world refused to trade with America, I imagine you’d be pretty well f\*cked economically, no? The rest of the world is not refusing to trade with Cuba. It’s mostly, if not entirely, the US that won’t have anything to do with Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/27 "2010-09-09T15:07:31Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > I think what makes it newsworthy is that this kind of statement has never been made by any Cuban official, least of all the father of the Cuban revolution. Yes, he’s just confirming what everyone, in Cuba and abroad, already knows, but now this truth is spoken. It should also be remembered that in Cuba it is illegal to criticize the Cuban government, this is the crime of ‘desacato’, or disrespect. However now that Castro himself has paved the way, it might become more accepted to do so in Cuba. > > Then again, this might also be Fidel’s way to insert himself back into the government. His younger (79 years old), brother has been running the country since 2006, so maybe all Fidel is saying is that Raul’s government is not working. My guess is that the Castros are trying to buy some more time. If they announce they have seen the error of their ways and will now institute reforms that will take the heat off of any calls to replace them - they’ll become part of the solution rather than part of the problem. They can probably string that out for another ten years in power. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/28 "2010-09-09T15:18:30Z")
That’s a bit misleading. The US was Cuba’s major trade partner prior to 1962, as you might expect. The fact that the Cubans have been able to trade with others doesn’t mean they haven’t lost out by being unable to trade with the US. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/29 "2010-09-09T17:30:25Z")
When a hurricane hits Cuba, and they do, they clear out cities with all kinds of mass transportation. Cuba has a good medical system. They don’t have manufacturing of any significance. When we there ,Dole Pineapple and other companies ruled them, things were worse. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/30 "2010-09-09T17:54:39Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Cuba has a good medical system. As compared to…? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/31 "2010-09-09T17:55:10Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When a hurricane hits Cuba, and they do, they clear out cities with all kinds of mass transportation. > Cuba has a good medical system. > They don’t have manufacturing of any significance. When we there ,Dole Pineapple and other companies ruled them, things were worse. Why don’t you head on down? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/32 "2010-09-09T18:24:20Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > Cuba has a good medical system. > > As compared to…? By some measures, the US. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate and nearly twice as many physicians per capita. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/33 "2010-09-09T18:31:11Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] That’s a bit misleading. The US was Cuba’s major trade partner prior to 1962, as you might expect. The fact that the Cubans have been able to trade with others doesn’t mean they haven’t lost out by being unable to trade with the US. [/QUOTE] They lost trade with the US and gained trade with the USSR. It’s not our fault they relied on the Soviets to fill their bowl, instead of rebuilding a foreign trade system. They have had over 40 years, after all, to build some kind of alternative to trading with the US. So…it’s not a bit misleading at all. [QUOTE=gonzomax] We have access closed off, so it has to be one way. Apparently we fear allowing our people to go there. [/QUOTE] Yeah, 'cause if we didn’t close off access then there would probably be a mass exodus from the US to Cuba! We really need to keep folks under our thumb or they would flee in a heart beat… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/34 "2010-09-09T18:34:29Z")
The Soviet Union was 6,000 miles away and its economy was half the size of the US’, at best. It’s not that they relied on the Soviets; it’s that their most suitable trading partner was cut off. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/35 "2010-09-09T18:38:39Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Communism and capitalism are both too idealistic. We need something in-between that works. > > -A free but well-regulated consumer market > -Free and lightly-regulated press > -Partially or fully subsidized higher education and healthcare > -Major campaign finance reforms to give more non-career politicians and “outsiders” a chance to hold elected offices > -Reasonable/practical protections for jobs and manufacturing (example: if it’s illegal to pay someone $4 per day here, a company should not be able to just move overseas and pay that wage in some country where it’s legal.) _But, but, that would be COMPROMISE with EVIL!!! Only extremism is legitimate & safe!!!_ [/sarcasm] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/36 "2010-09-09T18:39:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@xtisme](#): > > > > Certainly. Just as soon as we can stop pretending that their fucked up system ever worked at all, or had any redeeming qualities to it. > > No redeeming qualities? Have you compared the cost of sixteen year old Cuban prostitutes to those in other Caribbean countries? Look, you get what you pay for. You want genuine Cuban cigars, you pay black-market prices. You want the pure, original HIV strain, you go to Haiti and hang the expense! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/37 "2010-09-09T18:41:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@lalenin](#): > > > > I think what makes it newsworthy is that this kind of statement has never been made by any Cuban official, least of all the father of the Cuban revolution. Yes, he’s just confirming what everyone, in Cuba and abroad, already knows, but now this truth is spoken. It should also be remembered that in Cuba it is illegal to criticize the Cuban government, this is the crime of ‘desacato’, or disrespect. However now that Castro himself has paved the way, it might become more accepted to do so in Cuba. > > > > Then again, this might also be Fidel’s way to insert himself back into the government. His younger (79 years old), brother has been running the country since 2006, so maybe all Fidel is saying is that Raul’s government is not working. > > My guess is that the Castros are trying to buy some more time. If they announce they have seen the error of their ways and will now institute reforms that will take the heat off of any calls to replace them - they’ll become part of the solution rather than part of the problem. They can probably string that out for another ten years in power. Hypothetical: Suppose the Castro brothers decided, to hell with the risk, we’re gonna pull a Gorbachev: Free speech, free press, free elections with non-Communist parties included. How would that play out? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/38 "2010-09-09T18:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] The Soviet Union was 6,000 miles away and its economy was half the size of the US’, at best. It’s not that they relied on the Soviets; it’s that their most suitable trading partner was cut off. [/QUOTE] Hilarious! Two things: First off, there is the ‘got to hate that factor’. IOW, they should have thought of that BEFORE pissing us off, no? Secondly, trade is not an indelible right, granted for all time…it’s a mutual exchange. So, the US isn’t bound to provide Cuba with the right to trade with us, nor is it our responsibility to ensure that their fucked up economy works. If they lose a major trading partner, it’s up to THEM to rebuild their markets. They chose (CHOSE) not to do so, and instead they relied on the Soviets to make up the difference. That was a huge mistake, both at the time and in retrospect. Which gets back to the first point…got to hate dat. Poor choices. -XT ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/39 "2010-09-09T18:51:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@flickster](#): > > > > As compared to…? > > By some measures, the US. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate and nearly twice as many physicians per capita. Guess that would depend on whose standards are being used and what equipment & facilities those “physicians” have at their access. Did not Castro go to Spain recently for medical treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141/40 "2010-09-09T18:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hypothetical: Suppose the Castro brothers decided, to hell with the risk, we’re gonna pull a Gorbachev: Free speech, free press, free elections with non-Communist parties included. How would that play out? [/QUOTE] Two words: bachelor party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gasp-cuban-model-might-not-be-working/553141.md?page=3)