# Gates no better than Rumsfeldt **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 3, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038 "2008-02-03T00:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/1 "2008-02-03T00:14:04Z")
A month ago I brought to your attention the general disatisfaction amongst Canadians with the lack of support we are getting with Nato allies in Afghanistan and our undue share of the[burden](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=450154&page=2&pp=50&highlight=afghanistan+brunt) [QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Now I have one more point to make regarding the importance of Canada (As well as Britain and The Netherlands )(neither has a president) to US foreign policy. We are losing the war in Afghanistan. The only countries fighting without caveats are the US, Britain, Canada, The Netherlands and Estonia. These US allies are facing serious opposition at home because the rest of Nato is not pulling weight. The US, the most important country to Nato, is the only country that can coerce the other countries to participate more fully and share the burden to win this war and turn around the presently inevitable scenario of fighting this war alone and losing the goal. Canada right now is bearing the brunt of this war. On a per capita basis we have more fatalities than the US or any other ally. I would think that losing the war in Afghanistan by losing allies an important foreign policy issue though not popular in the US media bears some knowledge and understanding of the Canada. I don’t know if the other presidential candidates are aware of the fragility of this war effort and following the politics in Canada, but I have reason to be wary of Obama in this regard. References: [http://icasualties.org/oef/](http://icasualties.org/oef/) [http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-11/2007-11-16-voa61.cfm?CFID=242031477&CFTOKEN=84756007](http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-11/2007-11-16-voa61.cfm?CFID=242031477&CFTOKEN=84756007) [/QUOTE] Well the shit has now hit the fan. Looks like our prime minister who was a hawk for Afghanistan is fed up with the lack of Nato support and rebuffs to his pleas for more help including another 1000 fightable troops from Gates if neccessary. We are pulling out folks, watch for the rest of the fighting Nato allies to pull out as well So what does Gates do? Criticizes ours and British operations in Kandahar ! He can’t seem to get the Germans to pony up so he goes after us. Great eway to build a coalition :rolleyes: References: [http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=c0a3d118-c17e-4959-906c-afc76e508eec](http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=c0a3d118-c17e-4959-906c-afc76e508eec) [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/02/content\_7549324.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-02/02/content_7549324.htm) What actually prompts this thread is a CNN report today on the deteriorating situation in Afganistan with no mention of the forthcoming pull out of a major ally. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/2 "2008-02-03T00:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] What actually prompts this thread is a CNN report today on the deteriorating situation in Afganistan with no mention of the forthcoming pull out of a major ally. [/QUOTE] That’s a secret down here. We’re all too giddy with the success of the ‘surge’ in Iraq to want our news sources bringing us down with tales of woe in the actual war on terror. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/3 "2008-02-03T01:07:30Z")
So who knew Canada was even in Afghanistan? I mean, I know, but I’m a Canadian. And I think it’s time our forces came home. Afghanistan, like Iraq, should be left to its own devices. But then, I’m not in charge, so it doesn’t matter what I think. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/4 "2008-02-03T01:12:43Z")
Rumsfeld. No “t” at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/5 "2008-02-03T01:18:59Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] We are pulling out folks . . . . . . What actually prompts this thread is a CNN report today on the deteriorating situation in Afganistan with no mention of the forthcoming pull out of a major ally. [/QUOTE] The PM setting out that we will pull out in 2009 if NATO does not increase it’s participation is hardly a forthcoming pull out. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/6 "2008-02-03T01:35:23Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] The PM setting out that we will pull out in 2009 if NATO does not increase it’s participation is hardly a forthcoming pull out. [/QUOTE] It moves toward being one when Germany, France, Turkey and Italy refuse to send more troops: [http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/02/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-Afghanistan.php](http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/02/europe/EU-GEN-Germany-Afghanistan.php) > **[Germany rejects US demand to increase Afghan deployment](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-rejects-us-demand-to-increase-afghan-deployment-777239.html)** > > A bitter diplomatic row between Germany and the United States deepened yesterday after Berlin flatly rejected demands from Washington that it deploy troops in war-torn southern Afghanistan and angrily dismissed the request as "impertinent" and a... ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/7 "2008-02-03T01:36:18Z")
I had a clue Canada was there, mainly from thr flak abou the friendly fire incident about 5 years ago (!). Why would Canada’s ‘deaths per soldier in theater’ be higher than anybody elses? Region they’re in? Poorer equipment? Worse tactics? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/8 "2008-02-03T01:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=Darth Sensitive] Why would Canada’s ‘deaths per soldier in theater’ be higher than anybody elses? Region they’re in? Poorer equipment? Worse tactics? [/QUOTE] Most countries in NATO refuse to allow their troops be involved in combat situations, or even do any work in dangerous areas. Canada’s one of the few countries to will work in dangerous areas, so we take the vast majority of the casualties. ETA: This is specific to the Afghan missions. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/9 "2008-02-03T01:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Flying Dutchman** … The US, the most important country to Nato, is the only country that can coerce the other countries to participate more fully and share the burden to win this war and turn around the presently inevitable scenario of fighting this war alone and losing the goal. One might think so, but one would apparently be wrong. No one trusts the US government to lead in this war or any other competently. This is one of the costs of our utterly disastrous foreign policy under Bush II. Shame too, as this was a war that might have been winnable, and worth fighting. I don’t blame any NATO countries for staying out of it, nor will I be upset with Canada for getting out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/10 "2008-02-03T01:55:40Z")
Hold on… I’m not following the part about Gates criticizing Canada. I’ve been under the impression that Gates and the Canadian government are on the same page in pressing other countries to drop their deployment restrictions. Can the OP point out where Gates has criticized Canada? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/11 "2008-02-03T02:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Hold on… I’m not following the part about Gates criticizing Canada. I’ve been under the impression that Gates and the Canadian government are on the same page in pressing other countries to drop their deployment restrictions. Can the OP point out where Gates has criticized Canada? 😕 [/QUOTE] I read that in the 2nd to last link I provided in the OP. Remember that Canadians operate in the Kandahar region > [@](#): > > Gates has tried to argue that in criticizing the way NATO troops have been operating in Helmand and Kandahar recently he was not criticizing the British and Canadians who are fighting as the NATO troops there. > > He has tried to bully Canada into staying to fight in Kandahar by declaring that the U.S. won’t provide the additional 1,000 NATO soldiers the Harper government needs to extend Canadian combat involvement beyond February 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/12 "2008-02-03T02:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Hold on… I’m not following the part about Gates criticizing Canada. I’ve been under the impression that Gates and the Canadian government are on the same page in pressing other countries to drop their deployment restrictions. Can the OP point out where Gates has criticized Canada? 😕 [/QUOTE] [http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxiv7p5wbwKDNJbotJyMIrBxs2lw](http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxiv7p5wbwKDNJbotJyMIrBxs2lw) > [@](#): > > “I’m worried we have some military forces that don’t know how to do counter-insurgency operations,” Gates told the Los Angeles Times. “Most of the European forces, NATO forces, are not trained in counter-insurgency.” > > . . . > > Gates told the LA Times that in eastern Afghanistan, troops led by General David Rodriguez, commander of US forces there, “are doing a terrific job.” > > “They’ve got the (counter-insurgency) thing down pat. But I think our allies over there, this is not something they have any experience with,” the defense secretary said. ---
**Author:** ![Kingmambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kingmambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kingmambo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/13 "2008-02-03T02:49:02Z")
Canada’s superb albeit small and chronically under funded light infantry has been tasked with a mission that is on scale greater than their sum capabilities. They are unable to conduct effective counterinsurgency operations due to limited troop levels and a lack of mission critical assets. Insufficient equipment tends to make commanders risk adverse, and rightly so. Over time these on ground limitations have evolved into strong restrictions in regard to which operations their forces are authorized to undertake. Our high class buddies from the north have been gnawing on the proverbial shit sandwich since 2001. So have all other donor states. Let’s all cry. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/14 "2008-02-03T03:24:42Z")
Let me make sure I’m understanding this - Canada is involved in fighting terrorists in Afghanistan as a direct result of the terrorist attacks on the US on Sept. 11, 2001. Rather than focus on the actual terrorists responsible for these attacks, the US military machine chose to split their forces between Afghanistan, where the terrorist were, and a concocted, illegal war in Iraq. Canada refused to participate in the illegal war in Iraq. Now the US Secretary of Defense is criticizing our participation in the war in the country where the US should have also been concentrating their military might? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/15 "2008-02-03T03:35:05Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] Let me make sure I’m understanding this - Canada is involved in fighting terrorists in Afghanistan as a direct result of the terrorist attacks on the US on Sept. 11, 2001. Rather than focus on the actual terrorists responsible for these attacks, the US military machine chose to split their forces between Afghanistan, where the terrorist were, and a concocted, illegal war in Iraq. Canada refused to participate in the illegal war in Iraq. Now the US Secretary of Defense is criticizing our participation in the war in the country where the US should have also been concentrating their military might? [/QUOTE] Good but incomplete. The British, at least, have been complaining that the Americans are contributing to losing the Afghan war by too many indiscriminate airstrikes that kill civilians. This is costing them the “hearts and minds” part of the war. I’m not sure what the Canadians have publicly said about American airstrikes, but I understand they’ve lost a number fo soldiers to “friendly” bombs. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/16 "2008-02-03T04:23:49Z")
[QUOTE=featherlou] Rather than focus on the actual terrorists responsible for these attacks, the US military machine chose to split their forces between Afghanistan, where the terrorist were, and a concocted, illegal war in Iraq. [/QUOTE] I don’t really dwell on the legality of great moral crimes in general, especially when it comes to fuzzy international “law.” But I ask this in all honesty: what characteristics of the invasion and our continued occupation of Afghanistan make it “legal” as compared to Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/17 "2008-02-03T04:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] I don’t really dwell on the legality of great moral crimes in general, especially when it comes to fuzzy international “law.” But I ask this in all honesty: what characteristics of the invasion and our continued occupation of Afghanistan make it “legal” as compared to Iraq? [/QUOTE] I don’t know shit about international law, but I think that the whole “harbouring terrorists who launched several attacks on the United States” would make for a valid pretext for war. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/18 "2008-02-03T04:44:17Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] I don’t really dwell on the legality of great moral crimes in general, especially when it comes to fuzzy international “law.” But I ask this in all honesty: what characteristics of the invasion and our continued occupation of Afghanistan make it “legal” as compared to Iraq? [/QUOTE] It is at least arguable that the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was in response to a direct attack on the United States on 9/11. The Afghani government may or may not have provided material support for the attack, but they certainly sheltered those responsible for the attack after the fact. There was widespread international support for the US response as a matter of self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Mongo\_Ponton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Mongo\_Ponton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mongo_Ponton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/19 "2008-02-03T06:12:12Z")
I think Americans are vaguely aware that Canadians are in Afghanistan and are vaguely grateful. Also kind of scratching our heads as to why you would send your children to die for a group of men in Washington who can’t even seem to bumblefuck their way into Virginia. Of course we wonder why we send our own kids. I’m no pacifist by any means but we have no business in this place in 2008. None. If your Prime Minister had his button pushed by Gates then praise the Lord and keep the heat on. Get your boys home. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038/20 "2008-02-03T14:07:53Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] I don’t really dwell on the legality of great moral crimes in general, especially when it comes to fuzzy international “law.” But I ask this in all honesty: what characteristics of the invasion and our continued occupation of Afghanistan make it “legal” as compared to Iraq? [/QUOTE] For one thing, the Afghan government wants foreign troops there, and the International Security Assistance Force (the multinational force which is basically charged with getting Afghanistan put back together) is subject to annual approval by the United Nations. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gates-no-better-than-rumsfeldt/436038.md?page=2)