# Gaudere, I believe you are in error. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897 "2004-05-19T02:53:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/81 "2004-05-19T18:03:05Z")
**Shodan** has brought considerable enlightenment to your lowly correspondent from the conservative wing of the extreme left. Until he pointed it out, I had no idea that friend **Gaudere** had enlisted in the ranks of the Great Unpatriotic Conspiracy. This is welcome news to those of us who labor every day to undermine and corrupt all that is good and worthy in America, as embodied in the sublime presence of The Leader. It is thus with considerable regret that I note that our current stockpile of toaster ovens is depleted, due to the recent upsurge of new recruits. We beg friend **Gaudere** to understand our predicament, and hope that the much esteemed **Gaudere** will permit us to substitute a copy of _The Wit and Wisdom of “Fightin’ Joe” Lieberman_. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/82 "2004-05-19T18:23:47Z")
What **Uncle Beer** said. Nomenclature should have to abide by standardized rules which are not content-specific, not flexible – although I do see **Gaudere** ’s point that context makes a significant difference in whether something is to be construed as a generic statement of opinion or a insult of specific poster(s). Besides, as a wild hijack, would “Saddamite” be acceptable under the Marquis of Queensbury’s Rules? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/83 "2004-05-19T18:26:01Z")
As a sort of reply to the thread in general, although I am still hoping **Manny** will answer my specific question above, let’s imagine a hypothetical situation. There’s this guy, we’ll call him Bob. Bob is a very bad man. There’s these two other guys, let’s call them Sam and Dave. Sam wants to kick Bob in the nuts. Dave wants to put a bullet in Bob’s head. People are invited to line up behind Sam and Dave to show their support for the two courses of action each represent. Would it be fair for the people in line behind Dave to deride the people in line behind Sam as being pro-Bob? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/84 "2004-05-19T18:26:22Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Besides, as a wild hijack, would “Saddamite” be acceptable under the Marquis of Queensbury’s Rules? 😉 No, but I think the Marquis de Sade would approve. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/85 "2004-05-19T18:28:17Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > Where? Like as a joke? I do allow friendly jokes if I can tell they’re jokes. No, as in “Bush thinks homos are going to hurt him”. It is in **Evil Captor** ’s thread about how all Republicans support torture. > [@Gaudere](#): > > Sure you can lie. About specific, particular Dopers? I thought that was part of what you objected to in **manhattan** ’s post. > [@Gaudere](#): > > Lots of people do. I bet your real name isn’t even Shodan! 😉 Do you want me to check the facts of every post, and then determine if the poster was mistaken or deliberately lying, and then warn them if I think they are? If someone says a lie, ask them to prove it; for both your examples no one could have done so (I think), so people can give that statement the respect it deserves. Perhaps the other posters could simply have asked **manhattan** to prove that they supported torture. Thus no warning was needed. > [@Gaudere](#): > > Then find me an example where somone called particular posters a Saddamite. Or said they loved “dictator-of-your-choice-configured-to-sound-like-a-insult”. Or _something_. I may have missed EC saying something similar, but I need to see it, not just allusions to it. I’ve lost track of the times **spectrum** has accused me (and others) of wanting to kill gays because we don’t bark “Yes sir!” whenever the idea of gay marriage is discussed. But no. That particular word structure is original to **manhattan** , AFAIK. > [@Gaudere](#): > > If EC went to a thread of yours and called you a “torture-lover” with no explanation, I’d crack down on that too. No, he **started** a thread where he called me a torture-lover, and an earlier one where I was a racist. Because I am a Republican and a Bush supporter. > [@Gaudere](#): > > AND if he starts doing a little explanatory spiel in threads just so he can continue to call you torture-lover I’ll crack down on that too. First it was OK if **EC** explained his insult. Now it is not OK even though **manhattan** explained his. We aren’t getting anywhere on this, are we? We (or at least I) keep hitting up against this - “Republicans support torture” - OK. “Bush-bashers support torture” - not OK. Thanks for the explanation, although it didn’t really help. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/86 "2004-05-19T18:45:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Perhaps the other posters could simply have asked **manhattan** to prove that they supported torture. Thus no warning was needed. Which I did do, (more or less). I asked him who exactly he was referring to. Oh yeah, **EC** ’s OP sucks shit. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/87 "2004-05-19T18:54:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Why does it call for a warning to accuse the anti-Bush faction of supporting Saddam, but not for the other side? Why does Evil Captor’s equally stupid and offensive accusation pass as just part of the debate, but manhattan gets warned? You do understand the difference between a false accusation and a name, right? GD couldn’t exist if people didn’t make accusations and claims, even insulting ones, because it works to debunk and criticize those claims. But GD can exist just fine without name calling. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/88 "2004-05-19T18:56:28Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No, but I think the Marquis de Sade would approve. > > Daniel It was a far-too-abstruse pun, Daniel. Perhaps if I had written “a Wilde hijack”…? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/89 "2004-05-19T19:09:36Z")
Well, **Poly** , as long as you did not expect an Oscar for it. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/90 "2004-05-19T19:09:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It was a far-too-abstruse pun, Daniel. Perhaps if I had written “a Wilde hijack”…? D’oh! I hate ruining other folks’ obscure jokes. Sorry! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/91 "2004-05-19T19:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally Posted by Gaudere_ > I still kind of doubt manny really believes anyone posting really “supported” Saddam. I can believe EC thinks republicans are Ok with torture, because, well, it’s EC. But manny’s pretty bright, so his chain of logic seem uncharacteristic. It could be he is saying things he does not truly believe in order to make some sort of point against some things people have said against Republicans. Unclebeer seems to think this is what he is doing. I hope not, because then he is deliberately making GD a worse place AND making my job harder. Because EC is an idiot, he gets a pass on posting something idiotic. Because **manny** is pretty smart, he doesn’t get a pass on posting something idiotic. I believe this standard needs to be completely revised if this board is to maintain its current mission statement. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/92 "2004-05-19T19:41:25Z")
This is a total hijack, but when blinding flashes of insight strike they must be shared. **Message for the Conservative Dopers:** You know that feeling that you have of being outnumbered here, and that there is unequal treatment going on and that your voice is simply not being heard? _That is how your Liberal counterparts feel every single day in the real world_ **Message for the Liberal Dopers:** You know how you feel that the whole world has gone crazy around you and that you are outnumbered and that your opinions don’t matter? _That is how your Conservative counterparts feel here._ I bring this up partially as a call for empathy for one another and also as a call for a whole lot more deliberation and thought in our actions and how fairly we treat one another. It seems to me that we all want the same things for our country, more or less, and that we simply differ in how we think that we should get there. Would it hurt us so much (all of us!) to attempt a higher level of mutual respect? ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/93 "2004-05-19T19:59:16Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > > [@me](#): > > > > Why are you supporting this behavior? If you’re concerned that the standards of debate have fallen, why support those who are taking them lower? > > There’s a couple distinct problems with your logic here. First, the fact remains that manhattan’s comment is _equivalent_ to the example provided. If it is equivalent, it **cannot** be seen to be lowering the standards; it merely conforms to them. Second, it is entirely possible for me to agree with manhattan’s basic point, that there seems to be a double-standard, without agreeing with his tactics. It is that, his basic argument, which support wholeheartedly. On your first point: I am using “taking them lower” to mean “lower than we want them to be” not “lower than \*\*Evil Captor \*\* has already taken them.” My apologies for being unclear. Even if the two are equivalent (on which we may differ), I still object to supporting his behavior… which (your second point) is a distinction you did not make in your original post. > [@UncleBeer](#): > > And for the public record, even though the GD mods already well know, or at least strongly suspect it, I’m in full support of manhattan here. > [@UncleBeer](#): > > And I still note that most of the particpants in this thread are oblivious to the true point manhattan is trying to make. This thread is, perhaps inevitably, spiraling downward into personal attacks and issues, when that is not at all its intended purpose. Some may well be. It’s my impression, however, that most of the participants are not oblivious – they (we) simply think he’s wrong. Popping into a thread to call a group of fellow Dopers “Saddamites” with intent to offend (as admitted by manhattan) is obnoxious. I have repeatedly said that the behavior of others is no excuse for lowering one’s own standards. If manhattan (or you, or anyone else) has a problem with a post, report it. You certainly know how. As for spiraling down into personal attacks, I see much less of that in this Pit thread than there have been in others, on less divisive topics (widescreen DVD vs. fullscreen, anyone?). > [@UncleBeer](#): > > With that, I’ve now said everything I have to say on this matter. I’ve had lengthy discussions with the GD moderators over this very thing in the not so distant past. We failed to come to any kind of agreement then, and I think it less likely that any resolution will develop out of a public, and what’s certain to become acrimonious, discussion. I am disappointed that you would choose to take a parting shot and leave. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/94 "2004-05-19T20:07:44Z")
To repeat, I am with **manhattan** on the issue being pitted. But, while both **UncleBeer** and **Shodan** have termed the word “Saddamite” an offensive logical fallacy or at the very least an insult, why is **manhattan** continuing to defend its use? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/95 "2004-05-19T20:21:06Z")
Well, I don’t really come into the pit much, but thought I’d put in my two cents on this thread as I was sort of involved in the thread in question in GD. Basically, I have to say that I thought manhattan’s remarks were off the wall as I had no idea even who he was targetting with that (I assumed it was me, as it closely followed one of my long ass posts). However, reading through Gaudere’s explaination I don’t see the rational in spanking him over it. To me, his post was pretty stupid and off the wall because it made no sense in the context of the discussion. There was no clear target for it because of this. You say that you will spank someone on the board for specific targetted insults (which I agree with btw), but who did YOU think it was targetted at? My impression was A) It was targetted at me, which is insane if you think about it, as I get accused by the Bush bashing side constantly for supporting him and the war, or B) It was targeted in frustration at the anti-war crowd in general. If B, then it meets your criteria for general insults. Doesn’t matter if its stupid or inaccurate, as so are general insults directed at political parties IMO. If it was targetted at me, hey, no worries…its to ridiculous of a claim to take seriously. Not only am I NOT a Saddam supporter, I couldn’t stand the guy…and the only one I would soddomize would be my wife. 😉 Even if I WERE gay, I wouldn’t be offended by that, as it was an obvious attempt to be witty…and I’ve heard the term before in any case. As to what I consider the main thrust of the OP, that of general rules in GD, I’ve noticed a lot more venom in GD lately than I remember from the past. For years I’ve come to this forum because of the intersting people who post here. Recently I was comfortable enough with my English to start trying to join in. But I’ve noticed even before I started posting that things were heating up as far as the language and insults went. I suppose I can see why threads like Republicans like torture or are racist are allowed, but such threads invite the very thing you are trying to avoid. I think a review of policy for such idiotic threads should be done to determine if its appropriate for them to be in GD or whether they should be summarily moved to The Pit or to MPSIMS. Not saying its a banning offense, but threads are moved all the time from forum to forum…maybe a policy should be put in place to move such controversial (and stupid) threads to more appropriate forums? -XT ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/96 "2004-05-19T20:25:21Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No, but I think the Marquis de Sade would approve. His full title is the Marquis de Sademite. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/97 "2004-05-19T20:54:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, as in “Bush thinks homos are going to hurt him”. It is in **Evil Captor** ’s thread about how all Republicans support torture. Surely you can see the difference between someone saying “I hate homos” (using a derogatory and hateful term) and someone saying “Bush thinks homos are going to hurt him”, which is, due to the context, effecitvely putting the word into Bush’s mouth? Suppose that it was agreed that the word “fundie” was so hateful and loaded with emotional content that it should be treated like “nigger” and “fag”. It would be unacceptable to call another doper a “fundie” or to refer to Christians in general as “fundies”. But it would be acceptable to say “John Kerry hates fundies”. (It would be implying that Kerry was bigotedly anti-Christian which, true or false, is a claim that one is allowed to make). > [@](#): > > I’ve lost track of the times **spectrum** has accused me (and others) of wanting to kill gays because we don’t bark “Yes sir!” whenever the idea of gay marriage is discussed. I agree that **spectrum** is pretty inflamed about that particular issue and often completely goes off the deep end of reason. But can you link to an example of a personal insult directed at dopers? Ideally, one in GD? If we’re trying to discuss a hypothetical double standard (and I don’t prima facie deny the possibility of its existence) we need some examples… > [@](#): > > No, he **started** a thread where he called me a torture-lover, and an earlier one where I was a racist. Because I am a Republican and a Bush supporter. **Gaudere** explained this quite clearly… it’s OK to insult groups. That doesn’t count as insulting members of that group. It’s not OK to insult dopers, or (presumably) small groups of dopers. If you wish to post an OP saying “all liberals and democrats are traitors and cowards”, feel free to. If you’re given a warning for _that_, then you’ve definitely got some evidence of your claimed double standard. (It may, however, be the case that if you start such a thread and the mods believe that you are doing so simply to prove a point, or simply to be a jerk, and not because you truly believe your own OP, that you’ll get in trouble… I’m a bit unclear on this point.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/98 "2004-05-19T20:58:36Z")
I wasn’t going to post again in this thread. But this - > [@Binarydrone](#): > > I bring this up partially as a call for empathy for one another and also as a call for a whole lot more deliberation and thought in our actions and how fairly we treat one another. It seems to me that we all want the same things for our country, more or less, and that we simply differ in how we think that we should get there. Would it hurt us so much (all of us!) to attempt a higher level of mutual respect? deserves a bump. I don’t have anything further to add to it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/99 "2004-05-19T21:05:52Z")
**manhattan** just likes it in the pit, he’s a saddamasochist. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897/100 "2004-05-19T21:34:43Z")
I can see the distinction **Gaudere** is making. Saying “Republicans are evil” is OK, as it’s an attack on a broad group. Saying “the Republicans that are posting in this thread are evil” isn’t, as it’s an attack on fellow posters. I’m fine with that distinction, personally. So I’d like to bring up a post from the same thread as **manhattan’s** by **Mr. Svinlesha** : > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Many of the conservatives on this board are among the snidest, most hateful people I’ve ever had the displeasure of meeting. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > Perhaps you should consider a course in remedial reading? > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > I’m not going to fast for you here, am I, **manny**? Too me, all three quoted portions are insulting, though the latter two are not direct, personal insults. I’m not sure that they’re against the rules, although I think that ideally they should be, at least in GD. Comments of that type are cheap snipes intended to imply that the other person is dumb, and they serve no purpose in debating. But it’s really the first quote that I’m interested in. It seems to me that it directly insults a group of posters: “conservatives on this board”. I don’t think the fact that he qualifies it with “many” changes that. And “hateful” and “snide” are insults, in my opinion, because unlike “liar” (which is allowed) these qualities are mostly subjective. If a poster is caught in a lie, then he’s a liar. But what qualifies someone as being hateful? That their posts frequently contain hate? But there’s no easy way to determine that, except possibly for really extreme cases (such as white supremicists). If I read a poster’s posts and think that they are frequently dumb, then I might honestly say that, in my experience, the poster is dumb. But that (rightly) wouldn’t be allowed in GD. I see “hateful” as being similar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gaudere-i-believe-you-are-in-error/245897.md?page=6)