# Gavrilo Princip and the Archduke **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306 "2014-06-21T17:29:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/61 "2014-06-30T00:42:18Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Nicholas would have made a good small town Fire Chief A lot of people have said (and I tend to agree) that Nicholas would have been a good constitutional monarch. He meant well, his personal life was fine, and he was great at all the ceremonial stuff. He just wasn’t competent at running a country, which was the role history placed him in. If he had been the monarch of some country where his actual powers were limited and a Prime Minister and Parliament ran the country, Nicholas would be remembered as a good monarch. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/62 "2014-06-30T01:46:59Z")
[If WWI was a bar fight.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/1f8c2fff63b7ab1abf59a04b5cbfc157915c6085c0d4eea4946bbc9c1a82fa02_zps97928ad3.jpg) > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not really all that familiar with this chapter in European history. How was George the VI responsible for WWI to the extent that his two cousins were? > > He only became King just before the start and as far as I know the King at the time had little influence on foreign policy. You mean George V – George VI was king during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/63 "2014-06-30T06:50:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > [If WWI was a bar fight.](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/1f8c2fff63b7ab1abf59a04b5cbfc157915c6085c0d4eea4946bbc9c1a82fa02_zps97928ad3.jpg) > > You mean George V – George VI was king during WWII. D’oh! Yup my mistake! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/64 "2014-06-30T12:56:24Z")
My local paper just ran a WWI “timeline” featuring a squib mentioning that the war started in August 1914 (omitting the salient fact that Germany and Austria invaded their neighbors to precipitate the conflict). Later there’s the obligatory passage citing the “harsh” armistice terms poor Germany was subjected to. Apologist, revisionist history continues apace. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/65 "2014-06-30T13:38:01Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Later there’s the obligatory passage citing the “harsh” armistice terms poor Germany was subjected to. It pretty well determined that Germany would hate France for a while. A major argument for Hitler to use when he ran for office. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/66 "2014-06-30T13:40:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A lot of people have said (and I tend to agree) that Nicholas would have been a good constitutional monarch. He meant well, his personal life was fine, and he was great at all the ceremonial stuff. He just wasn’t competent at running a country, which was the role history placed him in. If he had been the monarch of some country where his actual powers were limited and a Prime Minister and Parliament ran the country, Nicholas would be remembered as a good monarch. But he had learned that an Autocracy was the only way to rule from his father, his Grandfather who was quite liberal (for a Tsar) having been assassinated. Nicholas II saw his Grandfather die after literally being blown to pieces, when he was a kid. There was a Dumas, and as he treated advisers and Ministers, Nicholas chose to disband it rather than work with it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/67 "2014-06-30T13:51:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > D’oh! Yup my mistake! Thanks for owning up, but I didn’t catch it. I didn’t really keep up after Edward VII, Cerepe Susette and [his chair](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259670/A-love-seat-fit-king-The-antique-chair-gives-eye-popping-insight-Edward-VIIs-debauched-youth.html). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/68 "2014-06-30T14:23:49Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > My local paper just ran a WWI “timeline” featuring a squib mentioning that the war started in August 1914 (omitting the salient fact that Germany and Austria invaded their neighbors to precipitate the conflict). Later there’s the obligatory passage citing the “harsh” armistice terms poor Germany was subjected to. > > Apologist, revisionist history continues apace. 😕 The terms actually were pretty harsh, weren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/69 "2014-06-30T14:24:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There was a Dumas . . . A Parliament of Musketeers? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/70 "2014-06-30T14:48:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A Parliament of Musketeers? Oops. Thanks, the house of the Russian Parliament is the [Duma.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/71 "2014-06-30T14:51:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 The terms actually were pretty harsh, weren’t they? As has been pointed out in one of these threads, not really, compared to the indemnities the Germans had imposed on the French in 1870. What there wasn’t was a WWI version of the Marshal Plan, to rebuild everything regardless of who’d done what to whom; and a War Crimes tribunal, to isolate the baddies such as those responsible for the massacre of Belgians and Armenians. Instead the Germans chafed under onus of national guilt, and reacted with the period version of #notallhuns ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/72 "2014-06-30T16:22:24Z")
The treaty was pretty harsh. Germany had to take sole responsibility for the war, pay reparations, disband their armed forces, and lose large parts of historic Prussia as all as the industry and raw materials of the Rhineland and Saar. How was that not harsh? Howd that fit President Wilson’s promises of peace without victory? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/73 "2014-06-30T16:49:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How was that not harsh? Howd that fit President Wilson’s promises of peace without victory? Wilson didn’t want to agree to it. That is why the treaty took so long. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/74 "2014-06-30T17:09:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > . . . as all as the industry and raw materials of the Rhineland and Saar. I thought the treaty said only the Germans couldn’t station troops there. (Since the only conceivable reason to do so would be to threaten the French.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/75 "2014-06-30T19:37:42Z")
The Saar was governed by the UK and France under League mandate until 1935. The rest of the Rheinkand was occupied by French and Belgian troops, by treaty for 15 years, and in 1923, tried to establish an independent “Rhenish Republic”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/76 "2014-07-01T01:44:22Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Thanks for owning up, but I didn’t catch it. > I didn’t really keep up after Edward VII, Cerepe Susette and [his chair](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259670/A-love-seat-fit-king-The-antique-chair-gives-eye-popping-insight-Edward-VIIs-debauched-youth.html). 🙂 How the fuck do you use that thing? It’s possible that if the Kaiser’s father had lived longer (his reign was only three months due to advanced throat cancer), WWI might not have happened, as he was much smarter and more liberal than his son. There’s also speculation that Willy himself suffered from brain damage due to a lack of oxygen when he was born. He was breech, and I believe the doctors were so busy attending to his mother that it was ten minutes before they noticed the infant wasn’t breathing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/77 "2014-07-01T02:26:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The treaty was pretty harsh. Germany had to take sole responsibility for the war, pay reparations, disband their armed forces, and lose large parts of historic Prussia as all as the industry and raw materials of the Rhineland and Saar. How was that not harsh? Howd that fit President Wilson’s promises of peace without victory? The parts of “historic Prussia” that Germany lost were the parts where Polish people lived. And the return of that territory had been one of Wilson’s Fourteen Points, which were the terms Germany was asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/78 "2014-07-01T14:39:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How the fuck do you use that thing? > It’s possible that if the Kaiser’s father had lived longer (his reign was only three months due to advanced throat cancer), WWI might not have happened, as he was much smarter and more liberal than his son. It also did not help that Wilhelm sidelined Bismarck early on. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/79 "2014-07-01T15:31:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It also did not help that Wilhelm sidelined Bismarck early on. [Dropping the Pilot.](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28324/28324-h/images/012.png) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306/80 "2014-07-01T16:05:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > [Dropping the Pilot.](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28324/28324-h/images/012.png) That link does not work (for me at least). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gavrilo-princip-and-the-archduke/691306.md?page=5)