# Gay activists flip off Reagan's picture **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042 "2012-06-23T06:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/121 "2012-06-24T21:11:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Incidentally, would it even be possible for this picture to be used in political advertising? The copyright to the image is owned by the guys who took it. If someone wanted to use it in an ad, wouldn’t they need those guys’ permission first? Good point. I’m pretty sure you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/122 "2012-06-25T01:09:45Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Those people are fucking asshole tools. Anyone who thinks that Reagan was homophobic is ignorant of history. Lots of people ignored AIDS in those days including many in the gay community. > > Let me tell you a story about Mr. Reagan. Back in 1978 the was a measure on the California ballot called Proposition 6 aka The Briggs Initiative. It would have banned any gay person or any person who spoke out for gay rights from being a school teacher in California. This was in between the time of Reagan being Governor of California and President. At that time he was gearing up for what was to be his successful campaign for President. > > The measure was looking like it was going to pass. Five weeks before the election, Reagan was asked what he thought of the initiative. He said, “ **Whatever else it is, homosexuality is not a contagious disease like the measles. Prevailing scientific opinion is that an individual’s sexuality is determined at a very early age and that a child’s teachers do not really influence this.** ” The measure failed 58%-42% and it is the consensus opinion that Reagan’s statement was instrumental in getting it overturned. > > Let’s recap: In 1978 when he was about to run for President, he was willing to take a huge political hit to support gay people. He acknowledged then that sexuality was innate and not a choice. Reagan was not a homophobe. > [@mhendo](#): > > You could argue that he sat on his hands during the AIDS epidemic, and i think that there’s some merit to that argument. But he certainly wasn’t the Lone Ranger in that respect, and he was also working under pressure from a large section of the American right that were putting heavy pressure on him because they felt that he had not been a strong enough supporter of evangelical Christian politics. [And the Band Played On](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_the_Band_Played_On) by the late Randy Shilts chronicles the widespread foot dragging in the face of a public health emergency during the early 1980s. There’s mud on everyone’s feet: Reagan was a bit player. Speaking personally, when I began to wrap my mind around Gay Plague (the term used by the Village Voice, before AIDS was coined), I feared the worst. Sure, there would be lots of money poured into research (and there was). But attitudes towards gays were pretty vicious. A Village Voice columnist noted in passing that homosexuality was the last socially acceptable form of bigotry-- this referred to his generally liberal New York circles. When I mentioned this to a friend he was affronted and stammered out the usual parallels to bestiality. Good people weren’t bigots after all, but very few defended gays. I figured we would have a probable national quarantine, the opinion of public health officials be damned. William Buckley recommended that all Aids patients be outfitted with a tattoo, so as to warn potential partners.[sup]1[/sup] This was before the tattoo craze struck: tattoos were the province of WWII sailors and former German death camp residents. Dehumanization of gays was par for the course. _Newsweek_ pondered whether and when AIDS would hit mainstream America: it went without saying that gays of course weren’t members of the mainstream. So why didn’t the US sponsor a Big Round Up? Well there was a balanced yet muscular editorial by the New York Times linking the word “Bigotry” to anti-gay sentiments. That swayed a few elites. And in the White House we had a conservative leader of Evangelicals who… sat on his hands. Reagan could have won plaudits from his base for taking a hard line on the queers. I thought that he would. But by some historical accident the leader of the Christian Right spent decades in Hollywood and happened to have nothing against gays. So while public sentiment was poisonous (albeit embarrassed), no effective agitators stepped forward to channel that energy into an electoral winner. I think it could have been much much worse. I’m talking **Der Trihs** worse. [sup]1[/sup] [Cite](http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/07/16/specials/buckley-aids.html): Buckley’s 1000 word 1986 op-ed piece in the New York Times. The word “Research” appears nowhere in that article. > [@William F. Buckley Jr](#): > > Everyone detected with AIDS should be tatooed in the upper forearm, to protect common-needle users, and on the buttocks, to prevent the victimization of other homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/123 "2012-06-25T02:19:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Incidentally, would it even be possible for this picture to be used in political advertising? The copyright to the image is owned by the guys who took it. If someone wanted to use it in an ad, wouldn’t they need those guys’ permission first? IANAL of course, but surely this would fall under fair use, wouldn’t it? These photos are a matter of legitimate public interest, I would think, for certain head-smacking values of “legitimate.” ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/124 "2012-06-25T02:27:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > IANAL of course, but surely this would fall under fair use, wouldn’t it? These photos are a matter of legitimate public interest, I would think, for certain head-smacking values of “legitimate.” Well, perhaps in southern states, or if the current federal court system has been sufficiently infiltrated by W. appointees, but otherwise, obviously not, since there are obviously very few fair uses that involve stealing a work in its entirety. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/125 "2012-06-25T05:06:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > IANAL of course, but surely this would fall under fair use, wouldn’t it? These photos are a matter of legitimate public interest, I would think, for certain head-smacking values of “legitimate.” There’s a fair use exception for images that are deemed “newsworthy”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/126 "2012-06-25T06:10:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s a fair use exception for images that are deemed “newsworthy”. But political advertising isn’t news. It’s advertising. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/127 "2012-06-25T06:20:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But political advertising isn’t news. It’s advertising. Not only that, but Title 17 doesn’t say that you can use anything you want for news reporting and call it fair use. Using a work for news reporting still requires taking into account the four factors relevant to fair use: (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/128 "2012-06-25T09:18:25Z")
How was Reagan “responsible” for the AIDS epidemic? AS we know now, the AIDS virus is transmitted by: -unprotected sexual intercourse by an infected person -sharing of needles by drug users - blood transfusions with blood from an infected person Reagan may have been a bad president, and he may have been a good president. But I don’t see how he could be responsible for the spread of AIDS. These “activists” don’t seem to realize that irresponsible behaviour accounted for most of the infections-that would be saying that “personal responsibility” exists-nah, we can’t have that-nobody is responsible for anything…AIDS just “happens”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/129 "2012-06-25T10:12:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Not only that, but Title 17 doesn’t say that you can use anything you want for news reporting and call it fair use. Using a work for news reporting still requires taking into account the four factors relevant to fair use: > > (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; > (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; > (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and > (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. Use of this image in an ad, besides being highly unlikely, seems like it’d match some but not all of these criteria: 1. If a PAC uses it, wouldn’t they claim it’s for educational purposes, just educating people about issues? Certainly it’s not commercial usage. (I add this to my list of reasons to hate PACs, of course) 2. The nature of the copyrighted work is an informal picture that was not taken in an effort to make money. Not sure what else is relevant about its nature. 3. The whole picture would probably be used–would it make a difference if the highly unlikely ad cropped the picture? 4. There’s no market for the copyrighted work, so its use wouldn’t affect the market. That said, the [Streisand Effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect) would almost certainly apply to any lawsuit against this ad that will almost certainly not be made. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/130 "2012-06-25T10:33:15Z")
> [@Buckley](#): > > buttocks Funny that as it turns out, that the person penetrating has a far lower chance of contracting… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/131 "2012-06-25T11:00:24Z")
Not that there’s a poll on this but for the record I’m voting 1. this is a tiny blip that won’t affect anyone’s vote on anything anywhere, and 2. they were definitely being douchebags. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/132 "2012-06-25T11:22:10Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How was Reagan “responsible” for the AIDS epidemic? AS we know now, the AIDS virus is transmitted by: > -unprotected sexual intercourse by an infected person > -sharing of needles by drug users > > - blood transfusions with blood from an infected person > Reagan may have been a bad president, and he may have been a good president. But I don’t see how he could be responsible for the spread of AIDS. These “activists” don’t seem to realize that irresponsible behaviour accounted for most of the infections-that would be saying that “personal responsibility” exists-nah, we can’t have that-nobody is responsible for anything..AIDS just “happens”. Reagan was POTUS when the epidemic was first identified. If you’ve paid any attention to US politics as an adult, you’d know the POTUS is held responsible by the public for everything that happens during his term. And in some cases before his term. But in this case it gets worse. Reagan and his top people were briefed about this new and deadly epidemic and they decided to take no action. It only killed gay people, so to the Reaganistas it didn’t matter. Time and again HHS Secretary Margaret Heckler brought up the seriousness of the AIDS epidemic during cabinet meetings, and the need for rapid action to save lives, only to be ignored. For her efforts to actually protect the citizens she, and the rest of the cabinet were oath-sworn to protect, she was kicked out. “Promoted” to Ambassador to Ireland, but none the less out if the cabinet. Surgeon-General C. Everett Koop was the only other Reagan official to speak out on the epidemic. He endured endless attacks from the homophobe right to shut up and resign. But he stayed, kept telling the truth, and helped the people he promised to protect. Unlike the rest of the right-wingers of that era, Dr. Koop had a firm commitment to truth. He was brought in as an anti-abortion idealogue. Yet he refused to publicize studies claiming abortions caused breast cancer because the studies didn’t hold up. When the AIDS epidemic broke out he spoke against it, when the rest of the administration fiddled while Rome burned. The reason Dr. Koop is still one of the most respected MDs in the country is that honesty. He, and Secretary Heckler, were one of the very few lights in the Reagan Administration, I don’t blame the protestors for flipping off Reagan’s portrait. Compared to the swath of death Reagan consciously decided to let loose, an obscene gesture is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/133 "2012-06-25T16:56:00Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > How was Reagan “responsible” for the AIDS epidemic? It was a Katrina type situation. Outside of a few conspiracy nuts, nobody is saying Reagan caused AIDS. But as President, it’s his job to address significant problems that occur during his term of office. There was a major new disease spreading and the Reagan administration effectively ignored it. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/134 "2012-06-25T18:27:16Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > …and maybe I’ll be able to muster a fuck to give. As it turns out you gave a whole three pages of fuck. That was very generous of you. > [@Honesty](#): > > Fuck Reagan. His Alzheimer’s ass sat on his hands and kept silent for nearly a friggin’ decade while millions of _Americans_ were dying of HIV. Cowardice incarnate. That’s worse than the Bush-Katrina debacle. Consider yourself lucky that his portrait got the bird - the portrait could’ve used a splash of ejaculate, far as I’m concerned. > > - Honesty You know who else I haven’t heard from about HIV? Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/135 "2012-06-25T18:36:28Z")
The pictures show a couple of idiots. I have NOT seen them pop up on Facebook from my extreme RW friends (who I can usually count on to post ANYTHING anti-Obama). So I don’t know how much traction this is getting so far. At most, I see this getting a couple more people to vote in November if it can be used to get their attention. Some sort of a “Replace Obama, respect Saint RonBo!” type get-out-the-vote message. It could make a little difference in a few locations. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/136 "2012-06-25T18:59:18Z")
It occurs to me that siding with Obama or the White House would be anathema to the sorts who hate gays, because they hate Obama and the White House too. Siding with the gays against Obama/Reagan/White House would make their little shaved heads esplode. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/137 "2012-06-25T19:23:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was a Katrina type situation. Outside of a few conspiracy nuts, nobody is saying Reagan caused AIDS. But as President, it’s his job to address significant problems that occur during his term of office. There was a major new disease spreading and the Reagan administration effectively ignored it. The late Randy Shilts (author of “And The Band Played On”) described the reaction of the gay community to the Aids epidemic. They ignored it as well..so six of one half dozen of another. Shilts described in great detail how the people who encouraged risky behavior (owners of gay bath houses) would not even discuss the disease-this I find hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/138 "2012-06-25T19:39:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The late Randy Shilts (author of “And The Band Played On”) described the reaction of the gay community to the Aids epidemic. They ignored it as well..so six of one half dozen of another. Shilts described in great detail how the people who encouraged risky behavior (owners of gay bath houses) would not even discuss the disease-this I find hard to understand. Hm. I don’t think there was much of an established gay community in the very early 80’s. As far as AIDs goes, there was the small NY paper the[New York Native](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Native) and you can’t blame its readers for being confused and misinformed. I’d think Reagan was getting better info. We also know getting people to change their sex habits, even under threat of death, doesn’t always work. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/139 "2012-06-25T20:24:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It occurs to me that siding with Obama or the White House would be anathema to the sorts who hate gays, because they hate Obama and the White House too. Siding with the gays against Obama/Reagan/White House would make their little shaved heads esplode. It’s not an either/or situation. Sprinkle a little confusion and ignorance over this and the right wing can spin it that Obama invited Reagan-hating homosexuals into the White House. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042/140 "2012-06-25T20:37:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not an either/or situation. Sprinkle a little confusion and ignorance over this and the right wing can spin it that Obama invited Reagan-hating homosexuals into the White House. Oh yeah, you’re right. I forgot about the Limbaugh Spin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-activists-flip-off-reagans-picture/626042.md?page=8)