# Gay adoption
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 28, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751 "2010-01-28T11:35:12Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/61 "2010-01-29T21:06:29Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#):
>
> I think **magellan01** is making the case that a child may on their own decide to act out in ways that are traditionally connected to their own sex, and a parent who says “we’re not raising them with all that crap about gender roles” shouldn’t prevent the child from doing so. A parent who refuses to buy pink frilly clothes for their daughter who asks for them is just as bad as a parent who requires their daughter to wear pink frilly clothes when she doesn’t want to.
>
> And if that isn’t the point he was making, then I want to make it.
I think this is a valid point. A kid has the right to choose for him/herself – and that includes buying into stereeotypical behavior _ **because that is what he/she wants to be/do** _. A “choice” limited to doing things traditionally opposite-sex roles is no more a real choice than one limiting a kid to roles ‘proper’ for his/her sex.
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/62 "2010-01-29T21:18:15Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#):
>
> I think **magellan01** is making the case that a child may on their own decide to act out in ways that are traditionally connected to their own sex, and a parent who says “we’re not raising them with all that crap about gender roles” shouldn’t prevent the child from doing so. A parent who refuses to buy pink frilly clothes for their daughter who asks for them is just as bad as a parent who requires their daughter to wear pink frilly clothes when she doesn’t want to.
>
> And if that isn’t the point he was making, then I want to make it.
Well, I would agree with that, but I think that the larger point is that people should be treated like individuals. That is, don’t go in assuming your daughter will love dresses. But also don’t assume that you can make her more gender neutral by what you give her. Accept her as who she is, whether she fits into the gender role or whether she’s more outside the norm.
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/63 "2010-01-29T21:35:03Z")
Check. Now, having established that, I think the onus is on **Magellan** to show how it relates to the question of whether a gay person or couple can be good parent(s).
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/64 "2010-01-29T21:43:52Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#):
>
> I think **magellan01** is making the case that a child may on their own decide to act out in ways that are traditionally connected to their own sex, and a parent who says “we’re not raising them with all that crap about gender roles” shouldn’t prevent the child from doing so. A parent who refuses to buy pink frilly clothes for their daughter who asks for them is just as bad as a parent who requires their daughter to wear pink frilly clothes when she doesn’t want to.
>
> And if that isn’t the point he was making, then I want to make it.
I agree with the point you’re making, but I don’t think that’s the point _he_ was making. I think this was his point:
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Boys and girls are different. Please digest that before you decide to raise a kid. He or she will be a human being who is dependent on you to help them navigate the world—they’re not a device for you to try to prove some political point.
Boys and girls are different? I don’t see any way of reading that than as an assertion that girls are girly and boys are, er, boy-y, and as a parent you shouldn’t try to mess with that hard fact. Unless you think he was just making sure we didn’t forget that they have differing genitalia?
And even if he did want to make the point that people should be allowed to be individual, it should be noted that in his anecdote it’s not suggested that the parents are _not_ allowing it. The child is allowed to wear the pink dresses. It’s a little unclear how hard or how long the parents resisted the “sterotypical” gender role, but it appears if they were completely excluding the girly stuff for a while, they’ve since stopped that.
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/65 "2010-01-29T22:22:28Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#):
>
> I think **magellan01** is making the case that a child may on their own decide to act out in ways that are traditionally connected to their own sex, and a parent who says “we’re not raising them with all that crap about gender roles” shouldn’t prevent the child from doing so. A parent who refuses to buy pink frilly clothes for their daughter who asks for them is just as bad as a parent who requires their daughter to wear pink frilly clothes when she doesn’t want to.
That is precisely the point I was making. Thank you.
I really don’t see why others find it so hard to divine. If you look at what I responded to and read what I wrote, there you go.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/66 "2010-01-29T22:23:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> If you look at what I responded to and read what I wrote, there you go.
This was my problem.
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/67 "2010-01-29T22:24:28Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> Check. Now, having established that, I think the onus is on **Magellan** to show how it relates to the question of whether a gay person or couple can be good parent(s).
I was making a point to a specific poster, based on some absurdity she stated. Clear now, oh pious one?
---
### Author:  [@CircleofWillis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CircleofWillis)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/68 "2010-01-29T22:29:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> No. I don’t have much to add here beyond what’s already been said, but there shouldn’t be any preference based on sexuality. It would be like deciding adoptions based on left or right handedness or sports team affiliation: it doesn’t affect the job of being a parent.
Agree with this. “Normal” is in the eye of the beholder. A child raised by two gay parents sees that as normal. When going to school, the kids with hetero parents are the 'different"ones. Two loving, nuturing parents who can check and balance each other is, in my opinion, what a child needs most regardless of the male to female ratio.
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/69 "2010-01-29T22:30:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> I was making a point to a specific poster, based on some absurdity she stated. Clear now, oh pious one?
Balrog wings are metaphorical. That has precisely as much relevance to gay marriage as sex roles in child development – unless you want to make the case why it has more relevance. And my religious beliefs and practices are irrelevant to whether you can make a cogent case for your opinions.
In a criminal trial, the accused is presumed innocent. The onus is on the prosecution to prove him guilty, to overcome that presumption by proof. In a SCITUS appeal, the presumption is that a validly passed law is constitutional; the onus is on the challengers to prove its unconstitutionality.
And in this case, I think that the onus is on you, who raised or at least dwelt on the point, to show where children’s sex roles relate to the topic of the thread.
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/70 "2010-01-29T22:34:22Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> Balrog wings are metaphorical. That has precisely as much relevance to gay marriage as sex roles in child development – unless you want to make the case why it has more relevance. And my religious beliefs and practices are irrelevant to whether you can make a cogent case for your opinions.
>
> In a criminal trial, the accused is presumed innocent. The onus is on the prosecution to prove him guilty, to overcome that presumption by proof. In a SCITUS appeal, the presumption is that a validly passed law is constitutional; the onus is on the challengers to prove its unconstitutionality.
>
> And in this case, I think that the onus is on you, who raised or at least dwelt on the point, to show where children’s sex roles relate to the topic of the thread.
Look at the post I responded to, oh pious one. If you don’t get it then, let’s both pray for divine intervention to aid your understanding. Because that is evidently be needed. Have a pious day.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/71 "2010-01-29T22:39:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Look at the post I responded to, oh pious one. If you don’t get it then, let’s both pray for divine intervention to aid your understanding. Because that is evidently be needed. Have a pious day.
What’s this piety gibberish? Are you having some kind of problem?
The post you were replying to was asserting (rather forcefully) that gays should be allowed to adopt because you don’t need a manly male man and a womanly female woman together to successfully give a child exposure to a diverse mix of roles. You presented a garbled post that may, or may not, have been disagreeing with her. Between the two, her post still reads as both more on point and more likely correct than yours.
In my opinion.
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/72 "2010-01-29T22:55:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> What’s this piety gibberish? Are you having some kind of problem?
>
> The post you were replying to was asserting (rather forcefully) that gays should be allowed to adopt because you don’t need a manly male man and a womanly female woman together to successfully give a child exposure to a diverse mix of roles. You presented a garbled post that may, or may not, have been disagreeing with her. Between the two, her post still reads as both more on point and more likely correct than yours.
>
> In my opinion.
Oh really? Let’s recap, shall we? You agreed with muldoonthief, as he restated my very position. Your problem then seems to lie in this passage of mine, which you cited:
> [@](#):
>
> Boys and girls are different. Please digest that before you decide to raise a kid. He or she will be a human being who is dependent on you to help them navigate the world—they’re not a device for you to try to prove some political point.
You took exception to this. I’m going to assume that you might agree with the last part. If not, please correct me. But I’ll assume it’s the “Boys and girls are different.” Is that right? Like I said, I’ll assume that for now. Which leaves me with some problem you have with my statement. Do you think it untrue? I can only assume so, because you took issue with a very simple claim. So, you think boys and girls are NOT different (aside from the genitalia, of course). If that is the case we simply disagree. I stand by my statement:
> **[Boys' And Girls' Brains Are Different: Gender Differences In Language Appear...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303120346.htm)**
>
> Researchers have long agreed girls have superior language abilities to boys, but haven't clearly provided a biological basis to account for their differences. For the first time and in unambiguous findings, researchers show both that brain areas...
> **[Why Do Boys and Girls Prefer Different Toys?](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/why-do-boys-and-girls-prefer-different-toys)**
>
> Throughout the world, boys and girls prefer to play with different types of toys.
> **[Boys and girls are different by nature and learn in different ways](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/lifestyle/2007-07/03/content_909081.htm)**
>
> Experts researching on how gender affects learning have found that boys and girls are different by nature and they learn in different ways.
And then you go on to say that you agree more with that nonsense I was responding to. The only way that might be true is if you think that children are fine as political tools of their parents. But you don’t think that, do you?
The piety remarks are for the person to whom the were addressed, the Pious One.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/73 "2010-01-29T23:18:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Oh really? Let’s recap, shall we? You agreed with muldoonthief, as he restated my very position. Your problem then seems to lie in this passage of mine, which you cited:
>
> You took exception to this. I’m going to assume that you might agree with the last part. If not, please correct me. But I’ll assume it’s the “Boys and girls are different.” Is that right? Like I said, I’ll assume that for now. Which leaves me with some problem you have with my statement. Do you think it untrue? I can only assume so, because you took issue with a very simple claim. So, you think boys and girls are NOT different (aside from the genitalia, of course). If that is the case we simply disagree. I stand by my statement:
>
> [Boys' And Girls' Brains Are Different: Gender Differences In Language Appear Biological | ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080303120346.htm)
>
> [Why Do Boys and Girls Prefer Different Toys? | Psychology Today](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200804/why-do-boys-and-girls-prefer-different-toys)
>
> [http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/lifestyle/2007-07/03/content\_909081.htm](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/lifestyle/2007-07/03/content_909081.htm)
> And then you go on to say that you agree more with that nonsense I was responding to. The only way that might be true is if you think that children are fine as political tools of their parents. But you don’t think that, do you?
Reread the “nonsense” post you were responding to again. It _didn’t_ suggest or imply making the children “political tools” of the parents - it espoused the _exact_ sentiment **muldoonthief** did - plus some bitching about people who think you need to have separate-gender parents to be able to hammer in those gender roles that everyone (including you?) is disavowing.
You are fighting a strawman.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> The piety remarks are for the person to whom the were addressed, the Pious One.
Okay…
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/74 "2010-01-29T23:35:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> Reread the “nonsense” post you were responding to again. It _didn’t_ suggest or imply making the children “political tools” of the parents - it espoused the _exact_ sentiment **muldoonthief** did - plus some bitching about people who think you need to have separate-gender parents to be able to hammer in those gender roles that everyone (including you?) is disavowing.
By ignoring all that “crap” about gender she is putting her idealized view of how the world should be above the healthy development of the child. I read a lot of similar shit on these boards all the time. Sorry, male is not equal to female.
I don’t know why I even come into these threads. It’s always the same old shit. Believe whatever you want. Just the idea that a claim that men boys and girls are different requires support hurts the head.
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/75 "2010-01-29T23:40:24Z")
And so another thread that looked to have been interesting gets hijacked into So-and-So’s Blog About How The World Should Be Run In His/Her Opinion, disagree on peril of personal insult.
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 29, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/76 "2010-01-29T23:59:51Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> And so another thread that looked to have been interesting gets hijacked into So-and-So’s Blog About How The World Should Be Run In His/Her Opinion, disagree on peril of personal insult.
This makes no sense, as it resembles not what has transpired. But you seem to be unclear on something, so let me see if this helps, and I’ll be extra careful to not insult you in any way (though it is tickling that _you_ would take “pious” as being an insult): I don’t like you. I’m disinclined to interact with you, except to the minimal degree that I feel I need to to keep my point from being twisted.
---
### Author:  [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/77 "2010-01-30T00:26:59Z")
Why does this always happen? Why does a potentially interesting discussion get driven off at a tangent and then stay that way because a small number of posters want to trade ever-increasing posts full of quotes to each other which end up being utterly irrelevant to the original topic? Could the people throwing faeces at each other either take it elsewhere or just stop for the sake of the rest of us?
With regards to the actual subject, I think this distinction between different and normal seems to be a bit of a misnomer. Men and women are different, but is one more normal than the other? No, of course not. What about an ethnicity, which is more normal? A religion? A political outlook? If we’re unwilling to start classing these as either normal or not normal then I don’t see why we’re doing it for sexuality, and on that basis it shouldn’t be a factor for adoption beyond clear relevance to the actual adoption case in question.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/78 "2010-01-30T00:33:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> By ignoring all that “crap” about gender she is putting her idealized view of how the world should be above the healthy development of the child. I read a lot of similar shit on these boards all the time. Sorry, male is not equal to female.
>
> I don’t know why I even come into these threads. It’s always the same old shit. Believe whatever you want. Just the idea that a claim that men boys and girls are different requires support hurts the head.
Let’s do cut the crap. **AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet** said nothing about putting her idealized view above the health of the child - she said she was **opposed** to putting gender stereotypes above the health of the child. She did not state or suggest that children would be forced away from traditional gender roles. As best I can tell, she espouses the exact same postion that **muldoonthief** and I and everyone else but you is supporting - you shouldn’t shove gender roles down the child’s throat _one way or the other_.
As I said, you are arguing against a strawman. And it’s really getting old.
Regardless. This only relates to the thread if your position is that for some reason a lack of a manly-man father and a womanly-woman mother will be damaging to the child, due to _inherently_ damaging their gender roles…or something. Because obviously you can’t assume that _every_ gay couple will aggressively enforce counter gender roles against the will of the child (unless you’re paranoid), you can only make this argument if you assume that merely lacking the father/mother figure will be, itself, damaging. Studies have shown that it ain’t, of course, but what’s your take on the situation? Is it an issue or ain’t it, and why?
---
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/79 "2010-01-30T01:13:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> She did not state or suggest that children would be forced away from traditional gender roles.
Sure she did:
[QUOTE=Originally Posted by AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet]
My girlfriend and I don’t have kids yet. But when we do…we’re not raising them with all that crap about gender roles.
[/QUOTE]
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> As best I can tell, she espouses the exact same postion that **muldoonthief** and I and everyone else but you is supporting - you shouldn’t shove gender roles down the child’s throat _one way or the other_.
It’s one thing to not “shove gender roles down the child’s throat”; it’s another to think them crap. And if someone thinks them to be crap, just how much do you think they’ll embraced? How much will they be shut out?
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> …you can only make this argument if you assume that merely lacking the father/mother figure will be, itself, damaging.
Damaging? No, I don’t believe that to be the case. If I did I don’t think I would be pro gay adoption. And as grateful as I am that there are gay couples providing loving homes to children, I don’t jump from there to it being the ideal relationship. Not that countless gay households could be, and no doubt are, better situations for kids than countless hetero households.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [January 30, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751/80 "2010-01-30T01:43:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> (though it is tickling that _you_ would take “pious” as being an insult):
Don’t play that game. Your sarcasm was so thick that even you could have recognized it. If you don’t want to interact with a poster, just don’t. Stop picking fights.
[/Modding]
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751.md?page=3)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-adoption/526751.md?page=5)