# Gay Anglican Bishop to be ordained **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304 "2003-06-20T23:08:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/21 "2003-06-22T13:24:26Z")
Okay. Methinks we need to distinguish between the two men being discussed in this thread. 1. The Rev. Canon Gene Robinson, bishop-elect in the Episcopal Church, is living in a commited sexual relationship with another man 2. The Rev. Canon Jeffrey Johns, bishop-elect in the Anglican Church, is living in a commited, celibate, relationship with a man. He admits that it was sexual at one time, but claims it has since been removed to the realm of purely platonic. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/22 "2003-06-22T13:36:21Z")
It’s Jeffery John without the ‘s’ and Episcopal and Anglican mean excatly the same thing. John is in the Church of England and Robison is in the Episocopal Church USA both are members of the Worldwide Anglican Communion. ---
**Author:** ![liberationsusie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@liberationsusie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberationsusie)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/23 "2003-06-22T13:50:20Z")
I have been told that sexual urges may be as much as ten times stronger in gays than in straights. Living together . . . behind closed doors . . . Both couples are doing the SAME THING . . . only difference is– ONE COUPLE IS HONEST AND THE OTHER ISN’T! By the way, Dr. Fitzgibbons in Philadelphia has treated hundreds of priest pedophiles, all but two have had homosexual relationships with men in the past. If they all came out of the closet tomorrow, the Church would have to accept them or close down! (Keating got too close to the truth and had had to go.) Either way, we win! Susie ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/24 "2003-06-22T14:44:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\*Oh, OK. It just seemed odd to me. And it speaks well of the children; must be tough knowing that the very act that conceived you was a hateful charade for your father and that he never really loved your mother. It would take me a while to get over that. \*\* Why do you assume it was a **hateful** charade? I spent seven years in a similar situation. Both my ex-wife and I have now come out of the closet. Our marriage was built on friendship and true affection. Our son was conceived by two parents who genuinely love each other. Agape love is great. But without Eros, you’re missing something also. We’re still close friends and our son seems to be doing quite well in the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/25 "2003-06-22T14:46:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by liberationsusie \* > **By the way, Dr. Fitzgibbons in Philadelphia has treated hundreds of priest pedophiles, all but two have had homosexual relationships with men in the past. If they all came out of the closet tomorrow, the Church would have to accept them or close down!** To be honest, I don’t think the number of gay priests is as high as everyone thinks. Think about it this way… Are many people in prison gay? Going on the number of inmates who have had same-sex encounters, one might think so. But in fact they are having such encounters because they cannot sleep with women. They simply do not have the opportunity. Now think about priests. Who do they have access to? Women, yes, but only in a limited degree. They also have access to other priests and children. Often, especially with other priests, they are under very little supervision. Hence the high rate of reported same-sex relationships. Does this mean the number of homosexual priests isn’t higher than the overall average? No. I do think the Church offers an outlet for those confused by their sexuality, who need a respectable escape. I just don’t think its up nearly as high as people think. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/26 "2003-06-22T19:14:55Z")
**Mehitabel** , I’d be interested in knowing whether John went through a marriage and divorce, or whether they have the two stories confused. (Two gay men in committed relationships being nominated in two different national churches belonging to the same overall denomination can definitely get confusing.) Robinson did undergo an amicable divorce with his wife (similar in some ways to **Homebrew** ’s), and remains close to her and their children – along with his partner, his two adult daughters and son-in-law were on the platform with him after his election in New Hampshire. And AFAIAC, both men are living moral lives and excellent choices for their jobs. (To draw a parallel, can you name which two Mods. on this board are married to each other?) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/27 "2003-06-22T21:12:31Z")
**liberationsusie** , please stop helping… Signed, A Concerned Gay Man ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/28 "2003-06-22T21:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by liberationsusie \* > \*\*By the way, Dr. Fitzgibbons in Philadelphia has treated hundreds of priest pedophiles, all but two have had homosexual relationships with men in the past. \*\* I’d like to see a citation for this “fact.” Do you have a link or an appropriate quote, \*\*liberationsusie \*\*? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/29 "2003-06-23T14:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by liberationsusie \* > \*\*I have been told that sexual urges may be as much as ten times stronger in gays than in straights. > > Living together . . . behind closed doors . . . > > Both couples are doing the SAME THING . . . only difference is– > > ONE COUPLE IS HONEST AND THE OTHER ISN’T!\*\* :dubious: “I have been told.” Well, ya know, I’ve been told that black people are inherently inferior to white folks. I’ve been told that Jews hate Gentiles and are trying to rule the world. I’ve been told that all white people are stupid, and devils besides. I’ve been told a LOT of things in my life, and I don’t believe most of them. You may suspect that Mr. John is being dishonest, but you do not seem to have any proof, basing this assertion largely on the fact that you think he may want to have sex more than a straight person. Does…not…compute. I’d be interested, though, if there are any studies examining the sex drive of gays vs. straights, though… ---
**Author:** ![liberationsusie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@liberationsusie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberationsusie)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/30 "2003-06-23T15:01:35Z")
I originally became aware of Dr. Fitzgibbons when he called in during the tv coverage of the Catholic bishops’ Dalla Conference on priest misconduct. That is where he made the statements on the air that I cited. Be forewarned, however, that he claims success in changing or “treating” homosexuality. I will try to find the tape I made and give you exact quotes. Three books which address this issue are: Pedophilia and Heterosexuals vs Homosexuals (Freund and Watson) Homosexual Molestation of Children (P. Cameron) The Prevalence of Childhood Sexual Assault (J. Seigal). Their research points out the following: \>Homosexual men are not necessarily pedophiles, but a disproportionate number of male homosexuals enjoy sex with young teens. \>Even though 2% of male adults are homosexual, 35% of pedophiles are homosexual. \>80% of pedophilic victims are boys who are molested by adult males. \>10% of male homosexuals are pedophiles. \>LESS THAN 2% OF CONVICTED PRIESTS ARE ACTUALLY PEDOPHILES. THEY ARE HAVING GAY SEX WITH TEENAGERS, YOUNG MEN! \>75% OF GAY MEN HAD SEX WITH BOYS 16-19 The Homosexual Problem By Reed Irvine and Cliff Kincaid April 12, 2002 In The Gay Report, homosexual authors K. Jay and A. Young found that 73 percent of the gays they surveyed had had sexual relations with boys 16 to 19 years of age. The Clarke Institute of Psychiatry says that 34 percent of sexual abusers of children were gay. PEDOPHILES 150.2 BOYS VS 19.8 GIRLS PER OFFENDER [http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=27431](http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27431) MONDAY APRIL 29 2002 Report: Pedophilia more common among ‘gays’ Research purports to reveal ‘dark side’ of homosexual culture By Jon Dougherty (2002 [WorldNetDaily.com](http://WorldNetDaily.com)) Child molestation and pedophilia occur far more commonly among homosexuals than among heterosexuals on a per capita basis, according to a new study. [wrote Steve Baldwin in, “Child Molestation and the Homosexual Movement,”] It is not my intention to derail this topic. I am merely offering some information I came across. I make no definite personal judgment about its reliability. Be aware that there are many sources hostile to homosexuals. Enjoy your debate, sorry if I made anyone angry. Susie ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/31 "2003-06-23T15:29:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **To draw a parallel, can you name which two Mods. on this board are married to each other?** Huh? For real? ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/32 "2003-06-23T15:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by masonite \* > \*\*But I also have to ask, does the bishop-to-be repent his previous homosex, or is his current celibacy merely convenient for him? What is he planning on teaching his flock about homosexuality? That’s relevent, wherever one stands on the issue. \*\* _DISCLAIMER: I know people who know Rev John quite well (one ex-parishioner, and one vicar who currently works with him - both of whom are at the Evangelical end of the Church of England), and have had several fairly in depth conversations with them on this topic over the course of the weekend just past. What I say here is based primarily on these conversations…_ Rev John has made it quite clear that he will argue for the teaching of the church on the issue of homosexual relationships to be changed - I can’t see that anyone would be able to hold that against him, considering where he comes from. I am sure that he will stick to the letter of the church’s teaching on the issue, as he is a great believer in God’s will being revealed through the church. This point also means that he is unlikely to refuse the appointment - since the Bishop has asked him to accept it, he (the Bishop) is expressing the will of God (in John’s view). From an Evangelical viewpoint (or at least those to whom I spoke) it is the past relationship that causes the issue (at its root). John stresses that the sexual aspect of the realationship no longer exists, but he draws parallells with a heterosexual marriage of 26 years where the physical side has ceased to be as important as it once was. There seems to be a degree of convenience about the statements, and it is not clear whether he would have been willing to cease the sexual relationship to conform with the Church’s teaching, had it still been active, which might have mollified the less militant branches of the Evangelical wing of the C of E. Both the people I spoke to expressed admiration for him as a human being and affirmed that his theology was orthodox in all areas other than that of sexuality - they expressed sadness that matters have been forced to a head, and the fear that this could well split the church, and as such spell the end for the C of E, for purely financial reasons - the big, successful parishes that contribute the most money to the running of the Church are mostly Evangelical, and as such, likely to be those who leave. Peace (I wish) Grim ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/33 "2003-06-23T15:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*Huh? For real? \*\* Well, AFAIK not under U.S. law. But I trust you grasp my point – their marriage is a real one in terms of _intent_ and _commitment_. And, with that caveat, yeah, “for real!” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/34 "2003-06-23T15:36:32Z")
Thanks, **Grim**. To avoid the traditional hijack, may I _request_ that any discussion of a supposed relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia have its own thread, rather than being answered here. I trust people know in which forum to place it! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/35 "2003-06-23T15:50:53Z")
I say fair f\*cks to them. About time, too. Sexual orientation is not something you choose, but something you are born with. I can sort of see the point of celibacy (channel sexual energy into meditation and all that, brings you closer to God, I suppose, as sex thends to “ground” you), but i cannot for the life of me see what gender and/or sexual orientation have to do with whether you can become priest/minister/bishop or pop, even, for that matter. Ironically enough, I’d say an inordanate number of homosexuals (up until the liberating 60’s) chose a life in a religious order, as they didn’t fit in with the standard man/woman relationship (and kids that came with it). ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/36 "2003-06-23T16:05:27Z")
Poly - no, I wasn’t being coy - I truly have no idea of who you are referring to. Email me if you dont think it appropriate to post which mods you are speaking of. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/37 "2003-06-23T16:12:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*Poly - no, I wasn’t being coy - I truly have no idea of who you are referring to. Email me if you dont think it appropriate to post which mods you are speaking of. \*\* Well, no, in view of the fact that they’ve told me privately that they’re “honored” to be held up as good examples of a committed couple, I don’t think there’s a problem. I’m referring to **Dr Matrix** and **Cajun Man**. And I trust you can see from the idea that they are a married couple, in the eyes of themselves, in the eyes of anyone who doesn’t bring a legalistic definition to the term “marriage,” and IMHO in the eyes of God, where I stand on this whole question. Not that that would be any surprise to you! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/38 "2003-06-23T16:37:55Z")
Wow - cool. I didn’t know that. Good for them! Evenings at their house must consist of lots of hot monkey se… er, “moderation of threads”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/39 "2003-06-23T19:32:08Z")
John picked up support over the past days from several bishops. [The Advocate](http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=9051&sd=06/23/03) quotes one who seems to understand the connection between gay bashing and religious condemnation. > [@](#): > > Peter Selby, bishop of Worcester, told _The_ [London] _Times_ that evangelicals are inadvertently provoking attacks on gays by their opposition to the appointment. **“What I don’t think they are noticing is what they are doing helps people who are homophobic bigots, because what it does is to supply religious rationality for their attitudes and behavior,”** he was quoted as saying. > [bolding mine] ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304/40 "2003-06-23T22:48:48Z")
The [Archbishop of Canterbury](http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/ap06-23-134033.asp?reg=EUROPE#body) has now made a statement in support of John’s appointment. Interestingly, the same article mentions that the very liberal Williams had previously rebuked the Canadian diocese of New Westminster for sanctioning the blessing of gay relationships. It is refreshing to see at least one major Christian denomination formally acknowledging the difference between homosexual sex (which is prohibited according to the more commonly held Biblical interpretations) and homosexual orientation (which isn’t), which carries the world-shattering implication that the Anglicans officially recognize that homosexuals are, in fact, people. Little steps… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-anglican-bishop-to-be-ordained/183304.md?page=3)