# Gay Arabic etymology? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 22, 2007, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956 "2007-03-22T00:44:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/1 "2007-03-22T00:44:28Z")
I was reading the article “[Gay](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gay)” in Wiktionary, and came across some unsourced claim that “The sense of “homosexual” is said by some to have come from an Arabic word via French” and I’m like you have got to be pulling my leg… let me get out Wehr’s Arabic dictionary and see. So here’s what I found on page 688… غيّ _ghayy_ trespassing, transgression, offense, error, sin; seduction, temptation, enticement, allurement As _Ms._ magazine always said: No comment. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/2 "2007-03-22T02:16:29Z")
Unlikely. The etymology of “gay” is well documented. It entered the English languge in the 14th century from French. It originally meant “merry.” By 1637, it had taken on the meaning of “dissipated” and “immoral.” By 1825, it transferred to mean an immoral woman (e.g., a prostitute). Thus a “gay lady” was a prostitute. Sometime in the 1890s, it transferred to male prostitutes (e.g., “gay boy”) and by 1935 was firmly associated with homosexuals. The path is so clear-cut that you don’t have to bring Arabic into it (well, maybe the original French came from Arabic, since the origin is unclear). It’s purely coincidence that the Arabic word is similar. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/3 "2007-03-22T02:56:31Z")
Interesting question. I’ll move it to GQ, where it’ll get more of that good ol’ GQ attention. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/4 "2007-03-22T16:35:31Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Unlikely. The etymology of “gay” is well documented. It entered the English languge in the 14th century from French. It originally meant “merry.” By 1637, it had taken on the meaning of “dissipated” and “immoral.” By 1825, it transferred to mean an immoral woman (e.g., a prostitute). Thus a “gay lady” was a prostitute. Sometime in the 1890s, it transferred to male prostitutes (e.g., “gay boy”) and by 1935 was firmly associated with homosexuals. The path is so clear-cut that you don’t have to bring Arabic into it (well, maybe the original French came from Arabic, since the origin is unclear). It’s purely coincidence that the Arabic word is similar. [/QUOTE] The earth rests on a turtle, but what does the turtle stand on? In other words, where did French get it from? Your history doesn’t address the OP because it all takes place after the point where the alleged transferral from Arabic to French would have occurred. The Arabs came to France in the 8th century. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/5 "2007-03-22T17:24:28Z")
I’m under the impression that the French use of “_gai_” to mean “gay” is actually something of an anglicism – that is, it postdates the use of the word “gay” in English to mean homosexual. And looking up the root of _gai_, it doesn’t seem to come from Arabic, but out of an old germanic word meaning “impetuous.” Or so it says [here](http://atilf.atilf.fr). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/6 "2007-03-23T04:59:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] I’m under the impression that the French use of “_gai_” to mean “gay” is actually something of an anglicism – that is, it postdates the use of the word “gay” in English to mean homosexual. And looking up the root of _gai_, it doesn’t seem to come from Arabic, but out of an old germanic word meaning “impetuous.” Or so it says [here](http://atilf.atilf.fr). [/QUOTE] Oh la la. Le Trésor de la Langue Française Informatisé gives much the same Germanic etymological data as Barnhart, but placed within an impenetrable thicket of scholarly abbreviations. Knowing French is only half the battle toward knowing how to read that dictionary. I’ll just make it easy and quote from Barnhart. > [@](#): > > Probably about 1300, splendid or beautiful; earlier, as a surname (1178); borrowed from Old French _gai_ gay, merry; perhaps from Frankish (compare Old High German _gahi_ rapid, impetuous, modern German _jäh_ hasty, sudden). Oh dear, I’m afraid “hasty, sudden” doesn’t sound very sexy compared to “sin; seduction, temptation, enticement, allurement.” In etymology it’s hard to be sure when a coincidence is just a coincidence, or if earlier speakers made wordplay which then became normalized and its origin as wordplay forgotten. Sometime around the Battle of Tours, maybe some Franks were getting drunk with their Arabic translators… ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/7 "2007-03-23T06:15:47Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] Knowing French is only half the battle toward knowing how to read that dictionary. [/QUOTE] The _Trésor_ gives the following etymology: 2nd half of the XIth century: of laughing humour (when speaking of a person) c. 1225: that inspires joy, pleasent and warm weather c. 1300: _vert gay_: yellowish green (when talking about a broth) Might come from occitan _gai_, meaning petulant, merry. Possibly from Gothic _gaheis_ , impetuous. Term possibly came from the influence of troubadours, or more likely, directly from Old High German. For another opinion, there is also the [Littré](http://francois.gannaz.free.fr/Littre/xmlittre.php?requete=gai&submit=Rechercher): Provençal _gai_ (merry) Old Spanish _gayo_ Italian _gajo_ Old High German _gâhi_ While this more or less parallels the _Trésor_, _Littré_ also mentions the following (although carefuly not drawing any conclusion): “Gaius” was a popular Roman name, which was concidered auspicious. This name became “Gavius” in early Italian languages. It is concievable that this is where _gajo_ came from, however, intermediate forms are lacking. > [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > I’m under the impression that the French use of “gai” to mean “gay” is actually something of an anglicism – that is, it postdates the use of the word “gay” in English to mean homosexual. Absolutely. “Gai”, in the sense of “merry” is still commonly used (e.g. “_Ça n’a pas l’air très gai!_” – “It doesn’t seem much fun!”) It’s only very recently that French speakers started associating the word with “homosexual”. When it’s used in this sense, there’s confusion as to what spelling is proper. For instance, [these folks](http://www.mag-paris.org/) go by _Mouvement d’Affirmation des jeunes Gais et lesbiennes_. However, [this organisation](http://www.algl.net/) calls itself _Association Lozérienne Gays et Lesbiennes_. That there is no concensus on how to spell the word points to its recent adoption. For what it’s worth, “gais et lesbiennes” returns 152,000 French languages hits on Google. “Gays et lesbienne”, returns 485,000 hits. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/8 "2007-03-23T09:48:42Z")
Interesting, no cites, but I recently hear that troubadours and the ‘Courtly Love’ stuff came from the Moors in Spain. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/9 "2007-03-23T10:28:57Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Interesting, no cites, but I recently hear that troubadours and the ‘Courtly Love’ stuff came from the Moors in Spain. [/QUOTE] Actually, my condensation of the _Trésor_ etymology isn’t clear. The hypothesis is that troubadours served as a vector for the word moving from germanic languages to French. The source for this assertion is the _Französisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch_ (Dictionary of Gallo-roman etymology), volume 16, p. 9. If anyone has access to it and wants to check what they have to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/10 "2007-03-23T13:10:41Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] Oh la la. Le Trésor de la Langue Française Informatisé gives much the same Germanic etymological data as Barnhart, but placed within an impenetrable thicket of scholarly abbreviations. Knowing French is only half the battle toward knowing how to read that dictionary. [/QUOTE] Preach it! And if there’s any key to the abbreviations anywhere, I can’t say as they’ve made it easy to find. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/11 "2007-03-23T13:54:21Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Sometime in the 1890s, it transferred to male prostitutes (e.g., “gay boy”) and by 1935 was firmly associated with homosexuals. [/QUOTE] The OP was right: the term came from gay houris! ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-arabic-etymology/396956/12 "2007-03-23T15:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Preach it! And if there’s any key to the abbreviations anywhere, I can’t say as they’ve made it easy to find. [/QUOTE] It should be noted that the _Trésor de la langue française_ is firstly a printed reference. I don’t have the 16 volumes at hand, so I can’t verify, but I’m pretty sure there’s a legend that was left out of the digital version.