This thread is so gay that it is almost fagatronic.
Bunch of gay wads.
It’s lame, too.
So what you guys are saying is that the term is now practically universally accepted, in the sense that nobody in this thread, so far, has voiced strong indignation.
Well, I suppose I wouldn’t mind this usage if there weren’t a very real, solidly active anti-gay population in this country, who absolutely **LOVE **to see the word used this way. And if it weren’t for the fact that so many impressionable gay kids are subjected to the dual meaning, in the very years when they need “gay is good” influences in order to save their very lives. And if it weren’t for the fact that gay people, including many of those kids, are still being butchered or driven to suicide, because of all the “gay is bad” influences.
To many of you, this is just an abstract, impersonal discussion of harmless slang terminology. But to me, it’s very real and very insulting and very dangerous.
Uh…at least two of us who don’t think it’s a big deal are also gay. And the one of us who isn’t me already explained why it’s not such a big deal from a gay-rights perspective, but I’ll add my bit too:
The things you mention are serious problems. The use of “gay” to mean “lame” is a symptom, not a cause of those problems. Sometimes, slurs are used as weapons in the war for equal rights, and at those times, they must not be written off as unimportant. This isn’t one of those times. Energy is better spent elsewhere, given that there is a finite amount of it to spend.
Don’t be so het.
Do people still use phrases like “black-hearted,” “that’s awfully white of you,” “Jew them down,” “Indian-giver,” etc., etc.? There’s a thin line between “forced into being P.C.” and good old-fashioned “don’t be a hateful asshole.”
I’m not aware that “black-hearted” ever had a racial component to it.
Lets not drag the differently-abled into this too!
Yeah, people still use at least some of those phrases.
One of my youngish relatives used the phrase “Jew me down” three or so years ago, and I just about had a heart attack. No one else in the family, imediate or extended, had ever said such a thing so I don’t know where it came from. It seems to have been a one time thing, though.
Also, there was a big to do not too long ago in the Pit about the phrase “mighty white of you.” The question there was similar to the one here, had the phrase shed it’s racial overtones.
I know, that’s exactly how I feel! With certain things, you can try substituting “lame” or “stupid”, but somehow it just doesn’t pack the same punch.
Like the song “Jingle Bell Rock”. Or the Montel Williams show. Or the Electric Slide. Or frozen drinks with thirteen ingredients that taste like piss anyway. You said it best, man, some shit is just gay! Of course, I never say that around people I don’t know really well. I don’t think it’s evil or homophobic, but it is in poor taste in certain contexts.
As far as kids receiving “gay is bad” ideas and being harmed by it, I’m not sure I believe that. Anti-gay bigotry is a problem that has nothing to do with the double-meaning of the word “gay”. Kids are smart enough to know the difference. The ones who are committing suicide are victims of something much more sinister than hearing “Carrot Top is gay” and thinking “Oh my God, Carrot Top is bad, and I’m gay, I must be bad too!!!”
Going by memory - no cite either - I recall reading a claim somewhere that the term originated in the court of one of the French kings as “gai”, referring to the large number of homosexual courtiers he had hanging about.
As well, we have Cecil’s take on it : link
As someone who lived through it, I politely beg to differ. And, kids may be “smart,” some of 'em, but they are also vicious little bastards who get away with things that would land grownups in jail.
In my family, we do not use profanity or racial terms, even if done in jest. We do use the word “gay” both ways. It is easy to tell which definition that we are using by context, and for the purpose of communication within my family and friends who will also understand the meaning within the context, I find it acceptable. When my teen daughter said that she thought that sending out photo Christmas cards was “gay,” I knew that she meant that she felt that it was “corny and cheesey.” That is what the word meant to her and I understood her meaning without thinking that she thought it was something a homosexual would do. After paying a visit to some friends of mine who happen to be gay, my daughter asked, “Are they roommates, or are they gay?” I understood what she meant by context and I answered her question.
However, I probably wouldn’t tell my daughter “Walking around with one of those little phones in your ear is so gay” in front of people who I think might be gay that I don’t know. I realize that they might not be familiar with the other definition and might not understand what I am getting at. There are lots of words with dual meanings that I am somewhat careful with, but it does not make the use of those words wrong.
It’s interesting how “bastard” has come to be so far removed from its original sense that I doubt anyone who was born out of wedlock would be offended by this.
In contrast, I don’t think the pejorative “gay” is so far removed from its original meaning (at least for some people), and thus it has the potential to cause offense.
If homophobia were completely non-existent, then of course the word could have a double meaning. After all, do intelligent people get offended when someone says, “Don’t get smart with me!”?
It’s interesting that opinion amongst gays on this board seems to be so polarised. I don’t know who or where any of you are, but I suspect that age and geography could be a factor in this.
All my gay friends live in London and are in their late twenties. More than half work in “metrosexual” (a far more homophobic word in my view, but that’s for another thread) industries, like the media. They came out a long time ago to a sympathetic audience, and have always been surrounded by like-minded friends and acquaintances. I make ostensibly homophobic comments to them all the time (far more scurrilous than simply calling them “ghey”), and they have an equally broad array of “heterophobic” material reserved for me (see any episode of Will and Grace for examples of the sort of banter I’m talking about). The fact is that they do not suffer from any sense of persecution; if anything, they reserve a level of pity for those of us excluded from the “club”, and see “casual” homophobia such as we are discussing here as sitting somewhere between being a complete non-issue and a sign of jealousy.
However, friends I knew at school who were coming out ten years ago to a peer group of highly insecure, aggressively straight, post-pubescent boys, had a really rough time and would have been highly sensitive to anything that hinted at homophobia. Likewise, I suspect, anyone trying to practice any kind of “alternative lifestyle” in a small town.
This was my experience, to the letter, as well.
And so what if “Gay” has been co-opted to mean “stupid” or “lame” or “pathetic”? Homosexual people don’t own the English language, as much as some of them would like to think they do.
The meanings of words change over time. It’s not automatically part of some vast conspiracy by The Man to make life difficult for minorities.
“Queer” used to be a perfectly good (albeit stiff upper lipped) word for “Unusual”, but since it was co-opted by the Gay Community it’s now become a PC term designating… well, pretty much anyone who feels like self-applying it. You don’t see people complaining about that (except Homer Simpson), so I think it’s simply a case of “you win some, you lose some”.
You were offensive enough the first time, in your assumption that I must be straight because I disagree with you, but somehow I just knew you’d come back with something like this. We don’t agree with you, therefore we couldn’t possibly have suffered from homophobia. I could easily refute that with anecdotal evidence, but I’m not going to, because it is absolutely absurd that I should have to do so in order to get you to actually listen to the reasons for my position. If you have anything to say about the points Miller and I and others have made, please do that instead of spouting more offensive nonsense.
Can I just say that my first post was not meant to refute anything you had said, but was simply my reaction to the OP. I also made no assumptions of any sort about you. I apologise if it appeared that I was making a personal attack - that certainly was not my intention.
Secondly, I do not need any evidence that gay people suffer from homophobia - I wouldn’t doubt it for a second. I was simply speculating as to why some gay people found the word “gay” used in the context of “rubbish” offensive and others didn’t. I am deeply embarassed to have made my point in a way that is deemed offensive, and apologise.
I am also aware, on re-reading it, that the first sentence of my first post is somewhat more inflammatory than I had intended. The broad generalisation does not accurately depict my point of view, but I more or less stand by the spirit of what I said there, so I won’t bother rephrasing.
Thank you for the apology and clarification. I’m not good at being diplomatic about this stuff; I’m sorry I snapped at you instead of patiently explaining my thoughts as some of our smarter and calmer Dopers might have done. I think sometimes this place gets me thinking the worst of people before really giving them a chance, and I should try harder to avoid that. It’s just that I’m a complete bastard.
To be more clear myself, I was annoyed because some of us who are queer homo gaywads, and not that worried about the gay=lame thing, have already explained why we feel that way, so I did take your statement as a refutation/analysis: as if what we said couldn’t possibly be our real reasons.
In fact, it’s precisely because I’ve experienced vicious homophobia that “gay=lame” (has anyone pointed out that ‘lame’ itself comes from a slur against the disabled?) barely registers on my offense-o-meter. The amount of cultural crap that has to be chipped away at before we can truly achieve equal rights is depressingly huge. Not every barb can be an outrage, there’s just not enough time in the day.
“Gay=rubbish” has already been watered down, and frankly strikes me as one of the first sad little death rattles of homophobia. It’s so weak, man. It reeks of desperation, when actually used by homophobes and stealth bigots. It’s as if some racists decided to call bad things, not “black”, but “African-American”. The joke is ultimately on them.