# Gay Bashing incident in Thunder Bay and the coverage it ISN'T getting. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322 "2009-09-08T20:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/21 "2009-09-14T03:16:18Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Indians – one of whom was treated in the hospital at the same time as the victim, who had kicked the assailant in the head while defending himself. > > I expect the police would rather keep their cards to their chest while they complete their investigation. > > As far as the media not noting the description of the assailants, if they come out and state that the assailants were Indians, then it will inflame racial tension. If they do not describe the assailants, then it leaves an Elephant sitting in the corner. Since we have a problem with Indians getting drunk and violent at both municipal bus terminals (the attack was near one of the terminals) and other areas in the city, I would rather that the issue be brought out in the open. As I suspected - the real reason why no description of the assailants was mentioned. Political correctness. Apparently even in the PC world, racial sensitivity trumps LGBT sensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/22 "2009-09-14T03:27:58Z")
> [@Juliefoolie](#): > > The area where the crime was committed is not good. Its near an addiction treatment centre (methadone clinic) lots of closed businesses, down the hill from a drug/alcohol in patient facility, a liquour store, bus terminals. Not far from rooming houses, and residential hotels. And yet, downtown core isn’t all urban decay and underclass. It has a cool arts and music scene, lots of collaborative projects, and a lot of greenspace, walking paths, a waterfront park. Its where I grew up and my family goes back in that part of town 4 generations. And three buildings down from where I used to practice criminal law, in front of the building where I am adjudicating a matter tomorrow morning, and a hop across the tracks to where my crew and I will be paddling an OC-6 tomorrow evening. It is not as bad neighbourhood as some, but there are some bad people in it. I am concerned that the city does not deal with the problem head on. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/23 "2009-09-14T19:22:08Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > And three buildings down from where I used to practice criminal law, in front of the building where I am adjudicating a matter tomorrow morning, and a hop across the tracks to where my crew and I will be paddling an OC-6 tomorrow evening. It is not as bad neighbourhood as some, but there are some bad people in it. I am concerned that the city does not deal with the problem head on. Somehow I had the impression you were south-core based. My employer sent us a message about getting escorted to our vehicles if we park in the Heart of the Harbour parkade. I guess the woman who was robbed at knifepoint (rumour has is by one of the hangers on to the gang) was an employee at St Joe’s hospital. I of course don’t work at that location, so I doubt any security guard is going to escort me to my car. (Half the time I walk to work anyway…) Ok, in non-tbay talk for the rest of you… Two other muggings last week, by one guy. Possibly although not confirmed to be one of the gang members, or at least from what I hear an associate of the members. One person mugged was an employee of a hospital in the neighbourhood, and every member of the care group got an email basically saying to be careful and get the security guard to escort you to your cars at night. Unless you don’t work at that location… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/24 "2009-09-14T21:08:21Z")
> [@Juliefoolie](#): > > Somehow I had the impression you were south-core based. I worked for a year in the south core around the corner from the bus termnal. (I also lived lived a couple of blocks from the bus terminal there for eight years-- a murder behind my home the week I moved in, a serious stabbing the week I moved out, and nothing but violence in the years between – now I’m in a chalet near the ski jump south of town enjoying the deer, bears, bluejays, flowers, and luxurious tranquility – my neighbour came upon a cougar a couple of weeks ago – the real thing, rather than the sort of cougars one comes across in town.) Then I worked for a year in the north core about a block up from the bus station, where it was not as bad as the south core. Since 2001 I have worked at the south end of Court Street – sort of a no-man’s land on the southern end of the north core, with no nearby residences or bars. The Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service opened up a detachment beside me earlier this summer, so I’m curious to see if it reduces the numbers of drunks and vandals who occasionally make there way here – so far, no difference. I’ve taken to carrying a cell phone with me when I’m walking in either of the cores, I keep clear of the bus terminals, I no longer go on the McVicar’s Creek recreational trail in the north core, and I keep clear of Simpson Street and the neighbourhoods bounding it in the south core. The heart of the north and south cores, along with the housing project at Limbrick Place, are the worst, as shown by the Stats Can map: [Map 3.2 Kernel density distribution of violent crime incidents and population at risk, Thunder Bay, 2001](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/maps/5001970-eng.htm) Stats Can also says (and I agree) that “The Fort William city centre [south core]has 67% more violent crime and 75% more property crime than the Port Arthur city centre [north core].” [Neighbourhood Characteristics and the Distribution of Crime: Edmonton, Halifax and Thunder Bay, Table 3.1](http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-561-m/2008010/tables/5001976-eng.htm) Since the crime tends to be neighbourhood specific, then hopefully specific attempts at mitigation can have some effect. The cultural factor complicates things significantly (aboriginals form 12% of the population in high-crime neighbourhoods compared to 3% in lower-crime neighbourhoods – see the above cite – and there is a lot more crime in the high-crime neighbourhood than the lower crime neighbourhoods), leading to aboriginal youth gangs, although I don’t know if “gang” is the best term, for they are not organized the way Satans Choice/Hells Angels are in TBay. Really they are just lost souls who like to get drunk or high and beat the crap out of whomever they come across, and who steal to get the money they need to get drunk or high. How long they remain unorganized, however, is of concern to me. Given that aboriginals are the highest growing segment of our population in TBay, I think it is imperative that the poverty, substance abuse and violence that segment of the population often suffers from be addressed ASAP, before things get a lot worse. I’d much rather spend the money now to try to help reduce such problems in the future, than deal with the even greater social and economic costs in the future should the aboriginal population remain at the economic, educational and social margins of TBay. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/25 "2009-09-15T02:38:55Z")
You put it very eloquently, and I couldn’t agree more. So many of the problems I see here have their foundation in the poverty and disenfranchisement of the First Nations population. Much of the native population has moved here from remote towns and reserves, many are the children of residential school survivors, and the family as a unit had completely broken down. Over and over again the risk factors are there, poor living conditions, poor parenting, children become wards of the province, lack of school completion, lack of well paying jobs, babies having babies… and onward unto the next generation. Bored, poor disenfranchised is a bad combination, through alcohol and oxycontin and other drugs into the mix and all hell can break out. Im worried about it getting as bad here as Winnipeg. I have never felt particularly unsafe at night downtown PA but FW is a different story. Of course, I know every street and every alley of downtown PA and I am not as familiar with the south core, so I freely admit there is a subjective bias to it. You grow up here and you are either PA or FW, and the other will always be foriegn territory. I had a friend who deliberately moved to FW in her 20’s so she could “get away from her parents” and it, for the most part, worked. Moving twenty five blocks can be like moving to the moon. The map you linked to is interesting. What is that small nexus south of Intercity, but north of Simpson/Victoria? Im guessing around Ogden St. I noted the Limbrick development, and I can see County Park as another smaller locus of crime. (Lived there for about a year, as soon as I got a job I was person non grata and had several acts of vandalism perpetrated against my property) **Argent Towers,** I apologize for not stating the gangs were of Aboriginal youth. I knew from early Sunday, but because it hadn’t hit the media I wasn’t going to start that without a cite. (I don’t think “FOAF said so” is a cite) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/26 "2009-09-15T04:34:21Z")
For those in need pf a “Canadian to English” translation, the twin cities of Fort William and Port Arthur (Port Albert? I forget) were united into the single city of Thunder Bay. First Nations is canadian for Native American/American Indian, sometimes referred to as Aboriginals (see above). First Nations reserves are scattered throughout Canada, with Native names, and often with their own law codes and police force. Alcoholism is a severe problem among a moderately large percentage of First Nations people, not as a stereotype but as a cold hard fact that First Nations and provincial and national leaders ate attempting to address. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/27 "2009-09-15T05:24:58Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > For those in need pf a “Canadian to English” translation, the twin cities of Fort William and Port Arthur (Port Albert? I forget) were united into the single city of Thunder Bay. That was damn near 40 years ago. I’ll bet most Canadians don’t even know that. Another name for Thunder bay that most Canadians recognize is the “Lakehead” > [@](#): > > First Nations is canadian for Native American/American Indian, sometimes referred to as Aboriginals (see above). Just a little follow up on your statement. The term “Aboriginals” in Canada includes not only First Nations, but Metis and Inuit. In other words, Metis and Inuit are not First Nations people. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/28 "2009-09-15T08:25:04Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > That was damn near 40 years ago. I’ll bet most Canadians don’t even know that. Another name for Thunder bay that most Canadians recognize is the “Lakehead” > > Just a little follow up on your statement. The term “Aboriginals” in Canada includes not only First Nations, but Metis and Inuit. In other words, Metis and Inuit are not First Nations people. And just to confuse things more, “Aboriginals” also refers to the native inhabitants of Australia as well. Who (sadly) have their own issues with alcohol and generally being productive members of modern society. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/29 "2009-09-15T12:42:26Z")
It’s bad to hear about these things in the abstract; it’s really awful when they hit so close to home. I hope some good comes out of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/30 "2009-09-15T14:16:41Z")
Gawdamighty. Here’s another one in Ontario, this time in London: [Gay man savagely attacked in London](http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Gay_man_savagely_attacked_in_London_UPDATED_10am_Sep_15-7482.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/31 "2009-09-15T14:25:50Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Gawdamighty. Here’s another one in Ontario, this time in London: [Gay man savagely attacked in London](http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Gay_man_savagely_attacked_in_London_UPDATED_10am_Sep_15-7482.aspx) From the new article you cited: > [@](#): > > Wright also says the man mentioned that he is from Thunder Bay. The assailaint must be some sort of really sick nut to read a news article from TBay (a thousand miles away by F-150), and then go out and try to kill a gay. Holy fuck, that’s warped! ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/32 "2009-09-15T18:36:41Z")
Hey, gay people in the US - you might want to consider a concealed handgun and learning to use it and carry it. That Second Amendment is there for everyone, straight, gay, or whatever. It’s there for YOUR protection. Don’t let the right-wingers “claim” it - it applies to you. Next time you read one of these horrific articles, remember that these gay-bashing assholes will definitely think twice about fucking with you when you show them the end of a .38. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/33 "2009-09-15T21:05:49Z")
> [@Juliefoolie](#): > > The map you linked to is interesting. What is that small nexus south of Intercity, but north of Simpson/Victoria? Im guessing around Ogden St. I noted the Limbrick development, and I can see County Park as another smaller locus of crime. (Lived there for about a year, as soon as I got a job I was person non grata and had several acts of vandalism perpetrated against my property) Yup, you spotted Ogden. The nexus south of Intercity, but north of Simpson/Victoria is a low rise apartment building tucked away at the corner of Marks and Dease. I had a family law client who lived there. I receive a call from him one day asking me to try to talk his brother into being a witness to repeated viscious attacks on my client by my client’s wife. I asked my client why he could not speak with his brother. He said he could not because at the moment he was on the run form the law. I asked him why. He said it was because he had attacked his brother with an axe. Years later, I still come upon him and his wife in court, fighting over custody and access, for one is as bad as the other. That building is full of people like that. (BTW, there is a list of social housing providors under the regulations of the Social Housing Reform Act, and the Social Services Admin in TBay has as list of addresses, which are worth checking before purchasing a house in a low or lower middle class neighbourhood, so as to reduce the risk of bad neighbours – note that this does not mean that social housing = bad neighbours. That simply is not true, for most people in social housing are terrific folks who just don’t earn enough. All I mean is that there is a much greater chance that a violent theiving substance abuser will find himself or herself in social housing than be able to pay full rent. If you compare the list of social housing and the map of violent crime, you’ll spot the correlation.) ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/34 "2009-09-15T21:11:09Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Hey, gay people in the US - you might want to consider a concealed handgun and learning to use it and carry it. That Second Amendment is there for everyone, straight, gay, or whatever. It’s there for YOUR protection. Don’t let the right-wingers “claim” it - it applies to you. Next time you read one of these horrific articles, remember that these gay-bashing assholes will definitely think twice about fucking with you when you show them the end of a .38. Google the Pink Pistols, and find a local chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/35 "2009-09-15T22:26:01Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > For those in need pf a “Canadian to English” translation, the twin cities of Fort William and Port Arthur (Port Albert? I forget) were united into the single city of Thunder Bay. First Nations is canadian for Native American/American Indian, sometimes referred to as Aboriginals (see above). First Nations reserves are scattered throughout Canada, with Native names, and often with their own law codes and police force. Alcoholism is a severe problem among a moderately large percentage of First Nations people, not as a stereotype but as a cold hard fact that First Nations and provincial and national leaders ate attempting to address. Which isn’t helped by the atmosphere in Canada that you are not allowed to make any comment on Natives at all. First we’d have to start discussing the Native problem openly (and realistically) before it can get fixed, and that isn’t going to happen any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/36 "2009-09-16T16:03:47Z")
Am I the only person who, at first glance, thought that said “gay flashing”? It completely changes the nature of the story, including who to be mad at. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/37 "2009-09-16T16:13:00Z")
Now that I’ve read the thread, I want to make sure that nobody thinks I was making light of the situation. I wasn’t aware that bigotry of that level still existed up there. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/38 "2009-09-16T16:40:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Now that I’ve read the thread, I want to make sure that nobody thinks I was making light of the situation. A flashing light? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/39 "2009-09-17T03:58:15Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Which isn’t helped by the atmosphere in Canada that you are not allowed to make any comment on Natives at all. First we’d have to start discussing the Native problem openly (and realistically) before it can get fixed, and that isn’t going to happen any time soon. This is exactly the attitude that is expressed by a colleague–who, perhaps not coincidentally, is both a First Nations member and a lawyer. I won’t continue by trying to explain our discussions, lest I put words in his mouth, but I find it interesting that he has ventured to discuss such things with me in an informal setting. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/40 "2009-09-17T04:00:24Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Which isn’t helped by the atmosphere in Canada that you are not allowed to make any comment on Natives at all. First we’d have to start discussing the Native problem openly (and realistically) before it can get fixed, and that isn’t going to happen any time soon. What do you mean we ? The rest of us who are non First nations people ? You think the answer lies with us ? Our government ?We’ve tried helping them for years. We put them in boarding schools . That seems to work well for the elite of our society. Let me say that I’m somewhat concerned about generalizing First Nations people. I’ve experienced the most hopeless and decrepid reservation north of Thunder Bay back in the seventies. The people were mostly drunk but docile. On more than one occasion I’ve seen bar tenders stand up an Indian, line him up and wallop him in the face. standard procedure. I’ve since learned a few years ago these same people, same reservation, have become quite violent. On the other hand, living on Vancouver Island since then, I have had countless interactions and business dealings with Indians many of whom are more successful financially than I am. The reservation near my shop contains millionaires from the fishing and marine transport industry living alongside the “peons” that work for them. The difference between these populations is so dramatic it cries for an answer. What does come to mind is the sense I got when I first visited the north Ontario reservation. There’s really no marketable sustainable resource. My God, these people really have no choice. They have to stay here, sustained by the government while I know I’ll only be here in the God forsaken mosquito infested land for a couple of years. The thought of being tied to this land would drive me nuts. Vancouver Island is a desirable place. There’s a future for young Indians in commercial fishing, guiding sport fisherman complete with their own $80,000 boats, and marine transport. For the most part these people are happy industriousl and extremely proud of their heritage. There are still pockets of problems though as young Indians are over represented in the foster care program. Is their a solution for northwest Ontarion Indians ? I think the government should explore with the various bands the possiblity of relocating to an area that can produce a sustainable renewable resource. Being stuck in the bush, out of sight and out of mind can only foster inner dispair or inner rage to be released . Any excuse will do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322.md?page=3)