# Gay Bashing incident in Thunder Bay and the coverage it ISN'T getting. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322 "2009-09-08T20:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/41 "2009-09-17T06:14:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Hey, gay people in the US - you might want to consider a concealed handgun and learning to use it and carry it. That Second Amendment is there for everyone, straight, gay, or whatever. It’s there for YOUR protection. Don’t let the right-wingers “claim” it - it applies to you. Next time you read one of these horrific articles, remember that these gay-bashing assholes will definitely think twice about fucking with you when you show them the end of a .38. Or they’ll just open fire themselves. Or attack from behind. Or they’ll be the cops. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/42 "2009-09-17T13:30:41Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You think the answer lies with us ? Our government ?We’ve tried helping them for years. We put them in boarding schools . That seems to work well for the elite of our society. > > […] > > I think the government should explore with the various bands the possiblity of relocating to an area that can produce a sustainable renewable resource. [Boarding schools.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_schools) Don’t we all just wish we were the “elite of our society”. You can look up yourself what has happened in the past when people have tried to ‘relocate’ First Nations people. I wish I could put into words what disgust I feel for your attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Robin\_Goodfellow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Robin\_Goodfellow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robin_Goodfellow)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/43 "2009-09-17T19:35:28Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Hey, gay people in the US - you might want to consider a concealed handgun and learning to use it and carry it. That Second Amendment is there for everyone, straight, gay, or whatever. It’s there for YOUR protection. Don’t let the right-wingers “claim” it - it applies to you. Next time you read one of these horrific articles, remember that these gay-bashing assholes will definitely think twice about fucking with you when you show them the end of a .38. Aw, no one bit on your “PC policing the Police” bait, so now you’ve decided to directly address every potentially bashed queer in the US and tell them it’s their fault for not packing? I bet having handguns would have worked out beautifully for the folks being served a barstool or broken glass bottle full of justice by the [boys in blue in Atlanta](http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2009/09/atlanta-eagle-raid-complaints-charge.html), once they’d searched every gay pocket in the house and found no drugs and began abusing people for not having proper permits. Tho I guess that’s their own fault for being out in the lower half the country or something? I donno - you’ve mixed your messages so many times here that you’re getting fuzzy and pathetic, when I think you’re reaching for incisive. Next time, stick to one trolling tact per thread, and if that doesn’t stick, wait for the next thread about gay bashing. Seriously, dude, this is like Trolling 201. I thought you were better than this. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/44 "2009-09-17T19:50:19Z")
> [@Robin\_Goodfellow](#): > > Aw, no one bit on your “PC policing the Police” bait, so now you’ve decided to directly address every potentially bashed queer in the US and tell them it’s their fault for not packing?..Tho I guess that’s their own fault for being out in the lower half the country or something? What the fuck are you talking about? Not once did I ever claim it was anyone’s own fault for anything? Who the fuck are you anyway? I never see your name in any threads making any interesting points about anything…practically every single thing you’ve posted for the past year has been in The Game Room…and now you come popping in here from the peanut gallery to tell me off? And accusing me of “trolling?” You don’t know what you’re talking about…go back to the Game Room. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/45 "2009-09-17T23:11:08Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > I wish I could put into words what disgust I feel for your attitude. You find it digusting that someone is pointing out the absolutely inarguable fact that forcing aboriginals to live in semi-apartheid isn’t working? I don’t think you really grasped Flying Dutchman’s point. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/46 "2009-09-18T01:59:25Z")
Aboriginals are not forced to live anywhere anymore. Indians (as opposed to Inuit and Metis) have reserves, but they are not forced to live on reserves, any more than non-aboriginals are forced to live in whatever communities they are raised in. That being said, if a person is a status Indian and lives on a recognized reserve, that person will benefit from certain aspects of the Indian Act, not the least of which include exemption from taxes, protection from seizure of assets, and extended medical benefits. The reserve as a whole will benefit from Federal funding so that it can provide housing to its members (but note that often the need for housing exceeds the supply). Although no one is forced to live on a reserve, obviously it is very difficult to leave one’s community (particularly small northern communities) and enter a mainstream culture for which one is mostly unprepared. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/47 "2009-09-18T02:11:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > You find it digusting that someone is pointing out the absolutely inarguable fact that forcing aboriginals to live in semi-apartheid isn’t working? > > I don’t think you really grasped Flying Dutchman’s point. I think she was expressing disgust that **Flying Dutchman** appeared to be saying that the residential schools were an exhibit of “helping” rather than being an exhibit of fucking up an entire generation of people by means of abusing most of them. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/48 "2009-09-18T02:27:11Z")
The Flying Dutchman’s proposed solutions were, to put it politely, very insensitive, and he was rightly called on it by Helen’s Eidolon. Let’s not let that stand in the way of recognizing the very real problems that The Flying Dutchman was trying to address, namely the need for members of a community to have educations, the need for a community to have an economic base, and the need for an equitable distribution of wealth within a community. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/49 "2009-09-18T03:11:18Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Let’s not let that stand in the way of recognizing the very real problems that The Flying Dutchman was trying to address, namely the need for members of a community to have educations, the need for a community to have an economic base, and the need for an equitable distribution of wealth within a community. I agree - it’s very hard to live in Canada and NOT see the problem. I have no solutions for it. I’d never say otherwise, **RickJay**. I’m just not convinced that relocation by the government is a good idea at all. In fact, I’m not convinced that any solutions can come from the Canadian government, at this point, only support. I think the leadership needs to be coming from Native assemblies. But to say that the Canadian government has been doing all it could for the welfare of Natives - gosh darn it, we sent them to boarding school, just like the kids of rich people in Britain! Only for some reason, they weren’t capable of reaping the benefits - is not only horrifyingly ignorant and insulting, it’s also saying that it was an attempt to solve a problem that it ended up exacerbating beyond anything it was before. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/50 "2009-09-18T04:10:25Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > I agree - it’s very hard to live in Canada and NOT see the problem. I have no solutions for it. I’d never say otherwise, **RickJay**. I’m just not convinced that relocation by the government is a good idea at all. I 'm pretty sure that the relocation I proposed included consultation with the people affected. That would be one major change from previous relocations designed either for proximity of government services/white settlement or simply clean water. IIRC. I’ve never heard of a relocation designed to achieve an economic base for an entire community like it exists on the west coast. I simply do not see any future for those who live on reservations in some of the isolated areas of northwestern Ontario. And I surmise that what Thunderbay experiences is the frustration of young people trying to make a break from their reservation communities. > [@](#): > > In fact, I’m not convinced that any solutions can come from the Canadian government, at this point, only support. I think the leadership needs to be coming from Native assemblies. That is exactly my point. > [@](#): > > But to say that the Canadian government has been doing all it could for the welfare of Natives - gosh darn it, we sent them to boarding school, just like the kids of rich people in Britain! I believe **Rickjay** got it. Perhaps I was being too subtle. My point was that government alone is not the solution. Outside solutions for the native problems are bound to fail. Residential schools sounded like a good idea, but they were an horrible failure. I used the “boarding school” phrase instead of “residential school” to illustrate how the government might have viewed the value of their program. Best intentions don’t always result in best outcomes. > [@](#): > > Only for some reason, they weren’t capable of reaping the benefits - is not only horrifyingly ignorant and insulting, it’s also saying that it was an attempt to solve a problem that it ended up exacerbating beyond anything it was before. I wasn’t concerned with the capability of children reaping benefits, but yes, I will say the government "attempt to solve a problem that it ended up exacerbating beyond anything it was before. **Helen’s Eidolon**. I share your concern and respect for the First Nations people. But I’ve lived amongst the First Nations people of northwestern Ontario. I can’t believe there is a more unfortunate population. I’ve seen horrible things. The problems of gays, blacks, women, and hispanics pale by comparison. Its interesting that this piece of violence has made the national news. Its a somewhat rare gay issue while at the same time its a common issue for the native people of the region. But who else gives a fuck. Its been 30 years ago when I last lived in the region. It only seems to have gotten worse. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/51 "2009-10-16T21:34:51Z")
Update: [http://www.tbnewswatch.com/news/Default.aspx?cid=68423](http://www.tbnewswatch.com/news/Default.aspx?cid=68423) Four of the bashers have been charged. The gay who had the shit beaten out of him has been charged. I’m curious to learn if there are any independent witnesses. Needless to say, I very much doubt that a lone gay went up to a group of local hoods and started smashing them with a brick. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/52 "2009-10-17T08:07:56Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I’m curious to learn if there are any independent witnesses. Needless to say, I very much doubt that a lone gay went up to a group of local hoods and started smashing them with a brick. Oh, that’s _totally_ how I spend my evenings when I’m in northwestern Ontario. Some Barbra on the ole iPod and some building materials, and I’m good to go. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/53 "2009-10-17T17:01:12Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I’m curious to learn if there are any independent witnesses. From your article (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > At that point, an extensive investigation began that Herman said was eventually turned over to the criminal investigation branch. About 20 witnesses were interviewed **including seven independent witnesses.** ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/54 "2009-10-17T19:10:34Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > **The gay** who had the shit beaten out of him has been charged. > > I’m curious to learn if there are any independent witnesses. Needless to say, I very much doubt that **a lone gay** went up to a group of local hoods and started smashing them with a brick. Does anyone else find this phrasing odd? “The gay man” or “the homosexual” sound fine but “a gay” just strikes me as weird. I would normally associate that phrase with some comedy routine, like in _Little Britain._ ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/55 "2009-10-17T19:41:10Z")
Independent as in not in the fight but still part of the gang of hoods, or independent as in the McDonalds employees. If the former, then I would take their statements with a grain of salt. If the latter, I would take their statements very seriously as being truly independent. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/56 "2009-10-17T19:48:32Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Independent as in not in the fight but still part of the gang of hoods, or independent as in the McDonalds employees. If the former, then I would take their statements with a grain of salt. If the latter, I would take their statements very seriously as being truly independent. What do you think distinguishes the 13 witness from the 7 in your article (of the 20)? How else might they be defining “independent”? I assume that people affiliated with both sides of the fight would be included in the 13, so who do you think would be classified as “independent” that wouldn’t satisfy your metric? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/57 "2009-10-17T20:01:41Z")
If the 13/7 split is 13 hoods in the fight and 7 hoods watching the fight, then I would not consider the 7 hoods to be truly independant. If the 13/7 split were 13 hoods of which some were in the fight, and 7 McDonalds employees or patrons of the McDonalds who had no association with the gay or the hoods, then I would consider those 7 to be independent. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/58 "2009-10-18T13:55:06Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Needless to say, I very much doubt that a lone gay went up to a group of local hoods and started smashing them with a brick. Well no, the lone gay guy, Raynard, was assaulted by the [brick](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091016/brick_beating_091016/20091016?hub=Canada) Judging from the stories, I’m getting that the real gay bashing victim is being ignored. The unnamed guy who sensibly left by cab with his one other friend before the incident escalated. His injury may not have been as dramatic as Raynard’s, and not worthy of national attention:rolleyes:, but a hate crime would more certainly have occured at this point. No other motivating factor for this assault is evident. Raynard, alcohol fueled, boldly but foolishly wasn’t satisfied with the end of the initial altercation and deliberately revived and escalated the hostility. He simply should have known better. But, he gets his 15 minutes ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/59 "2009-10-18T15:46:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Raynard, alcohol fueled, boldly but foolishly wasn’t satisfied with the end of the initial altercation and deliberately revived and escalated the hostility. That very well could be. Roving post-bar fights are not uncommon. If so, what he did was both stupid and illegal, but I’d like to shake his hand. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322/60 "2009-10-18T15:53:50Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Well no, the lone gay guy, Raynard, was assaulted by the [brick](http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091016/brick_beating_091016/20091016?hub=Canada) Both (from Lisa’s OP cite): > [@](#): > > A man is in hospital for reconstructive surgery after being attacked with bricks early Saturday morning in what his family calls a hate crime. > > . . . . > > Once his friends were in the cab, Raynard said the group surrounded the taxi, preventing him from getting in. He decided to run through a nearby alley towards a local restaurant instead, grabbing a brick for self-defense as the men chased him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-incident-in-thunder-bay-and-the-coverage-it-isnt-getting/509322.md?page=2)