# Gay Bashing -- What Age, and What Extent? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2001, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873 "2001-02-02T15:46:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/21 "2001-02-03T05:48:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TWTCommish \* > \*\*I’d always thought that homosexuality was a clear-cut issue for those who believe in the Bible, as I do. > \*\* Well yeah. For people who believe in the Bible as you. But your’s is not the only way of believing in the Bible. I said I was going to bring this book up every chance I got (and darned if it isn’t relavent to a whole bunch of threads going on now): Take a look at Bruce Bawer’s “Stealing Jesus”. He believes in the Bible. \*\* > [@](#): > > You have to admit this much: the sheer mechanics seem to go against the way we humans are designed. That alone makes me wonder about it. > \*\* Wonder about two people loving each other? Wonder about about the desire to be with the person you love and give them pleasure? That IS the way human beings are designed. Or are you reducing the whole complexity of human love and sexuality to a matter incompatable plumbing? \*\* > [@](#): > > Oh, and the only times I have a problem with gay people would probably have to be when some of them wear dog collars and tight leather clothing and dance around in a parade - I wouldn’t like it if straight people did that either, by the way. > \*\* Straight people do do that. And a lot weirder things. Obviously you’ve never been to Mardi Gra. Or for that matter the Mummers parade. And most homosexuals don’t march in the parade (Fifth Ave. just isn’t that big) or wear dogs collars and leather clothes. So what does it have to do with the other several million homosexuals out there? If you don’t like the parade, don’t go (although you’d be missing out on a lot of fun. And some really nice floats.) ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/22 "2001-02-03T05:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > \*\* > > Regardless of your views on the Bible and sex, they are a totally seperate issue from how you are treated. > > Goboy: I love the person, but their views are repugnant. > > Right-Wing Christian: I love the person, but the actions are repugnant. > I see no difference between your views and and their’s. > \*\* Hmmm…I think I see one. If a homosexual tried to for a homosexual “action” on me it would indeed be repugnant. It would be assault. But But no homosexual has ever done that and most don’t do it to anyone. So I see no reason to find their actions repugnant. Or even if I did I see no reason to rail against them as they don’t effect me. Right-Wing Christians on the other hand want their views to effect me. For the good of the nation. So I am far more jutified in bringing up the fact that I find them repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![IMATION](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7ab992/32.png) [@IMATION](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMATION)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/23 "2001-02-03T05:59:15Z")
My personal advice is to introduce a ‘gay-hater’ to a gay person. But, you dont tell them that the person is gay… let them become comfortable with the new friend while you are with them. jsut make it out like the gay/lesbian person is a friend of yours that is tagging along for the outing… after wards ask of their oopinion of the new person, and tell them that they are gay. this would come as a shock to them… but they will come around… ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/24 "2001-02-03T06:24:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Right-Wing Christians on the other hand want their views to effect me. For the good of the nation. So I am far more jutified in bringing up the fact that I find them repugnant. The problem is, this does not apply to anything that has been said in this thread. Commish has said that he thinks homosexuality is a sin, but that he doesn’t think people shoudl be treated differently because of it. There are plenty of people who feel this way. If Goboy can be naturally gay, then I see no reason why Commish can’t naturally believe that homosexuality is a sin. Tolerance means accepting things that DIFFER from what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/25 "2001-02-03T06:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Right-Wing Christians on the other hand want their views to effect me. For the good of the nation. So I am far more jutified in bringing up the fact that I find them repugnant. > > The problem is, this does not apply to anything that has been said in this thread. > > \*\* Ah. But you didn’t say Commish, you said Right-Wing Christians, so I assumed you meant it generally. And it seems to me goboy was also talking about RWCs in general, as he has experienced the in the real world. He defended Commish’s right to post. As do I. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/26 "2001-02-03T07:14:19Z")
> [@](#): > > He defended Commish’s right to post. As do I. I probably erred in trying not to use Commish directly in my example (and possibly dragging him somewhere he didn’t want to go). I used the generic “right wing christian” label instead. Please allow me to backtrack and get more specific. I was very specifically talking about Goboy calling Comish’s views “repugnant.” That to me is not tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![TWTCommish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TWTCommish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWTCommish)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/27 "2001-02-03T13:21:26Z")
Well, perhaps it’s not - I’m not going to make a big stink over it, though. I was hoping he’d be a little more open to the other point of view (he seemed rather ticked off in one of the earlier posts), but I’m not going to hold a grudge. Hopefully he’ll come around. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/28 "2001-02-03T15:33:13Z")
[painfully wrenching hijacked thread back onto rails] Well, yes, I’d agree that the peer group has a lot to do with it. But. When _my_ kids come home and express an anti-gay sentiment, they get immediate “gays are people, too” feedback from Mom and Dad. “Um, you did know that the word ‘faggot’ is a kind of a cuss word, like ‘nigger’? We don’t use words like that.” Or when they’re watching something on TV that’s making jokes about gays, if Mom or Dad hears something particularly outrageous, we put our two cents’ worth in. “You did know that that’s a stereotype? Gays don’t all wear women’s clothes and sashay around the room.” The most recent instance of this was the other night, when Bonzo (age 13) and I were watching _The Producers_ on tape from the library, you know, the part with the flamboyantly gay director who comes out from behind the screen wearing an evening gown. Bonzo watched this with me a few years ago, and he totally didn’t get it. “Mom, why is he wearing a dress?” But now, oh baby, he got it, because he knew all about “fags” from his friends, although he remained somewhat puzzled by the sidekick, Carmen Ghia (?), the little one with the pointy beard. He still didn’t “get” the whole joke about squabbling gay couples sounded just like old married people, but overall, the scene worked for him this time around. And he learned all that from his buddies at school. But he had Mom sitting there to remind him, “You know this is a stereotype, a joke.” So Blondie’s little friend may be getting anti-gay influences from her peer group, but dollars will get you donuts that when she comes home and tries these ideas out on her parents, she gets reinforcement, not gentle correction. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/29 "2001-02-03T19:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > but dollars will get you donuts that when she comes home and tries these ideas out on her parents, she gets reinforcement, not gentle correction. OK, DDG. I’ll buy that, providing we understand that the “reinforcement” might be passive. Parents do not have to actively agree with or encourage hatred, they simply have to not respond. That said, while I’d prefer that all parents go out of their way to install all the values I think they should have, it _is_ systemic. As long as filth like Eminem is popular, kids will continue to receive the messaage from their peers. And sometimes no amount of gentle correction will offset that. As to the OP, I don’t remember much in the way of specifics in middle school. As near as I remember, “gay,” queer," and “fag” were just pretty ubiquitous. In high school, the silly, childish stuff receeded, and the more “adult” bashing took its place. I was friends with my (private) school’s first open homosexual (in its 50 year history), and spent a lot of time with him. He did receive the occasional threatening phone call; less frequently his friends did as well. Once in a while I had things like “faglover” scrawled on my locker. And I was with M— when he discovered his windshield smashed in by a baseball bat in the school parking lot (they were kind enough to leave the bat, and he carried it in his car from then on). I guess it seems to me that by high school, kids either don’t care or are full-on assholes. Hopefully, **Blondie** , your friend’s daughter will be among the former. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/30 "2001-02-03T19:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > Hey Goboy, > > I graduated HS in '91. I grew up in NJ (close to the city) but practically lived in Greenwich Village. I remember tons of gay bashing stories. It was a huge concern. I even remember posters plastered all over by gay vigilante groups threatening those who had bashed. I recall thinking that it was like a war over there. > > Years have gone by since I hung out in the Village. > > With the exception of Matthew Shepard, has the tension dropped since the early 90’s? It seems to me that it has, but I would be interested in hearing a better informed opinion on it. \*\* Tensions have increased. We are considered and treated as second class citizens and worse. The gay people who are born in this country have to fight for basic rights that are a given for any heterosexual. I’m not just talking the right to marry either. Statistics from 1999: 242% increase in incidents reported committed by hate groups 103% increase in incidents occurring at or near LGBT events Police response deteriorated. 155% of verbal harassment and abuse of victims by police 866% rise in physical abuse by police [http://www.lambda.org/1998\_RPT.PDF](http://www.lambda.org/1998_RPT.PDF) You seem to think that tolerance encompasses accepting and tolerating the intolerant. I think that they require education to see that they have no right to use their relgion as a cudgel to try and change or force gay men and women to be something they are not. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/31 "2001-02-03T21:03:54Z")
HASTUR, with respect, you quote from a study that clearly says “There was a _modest decline_ in 1998 in the total number of reported anti-gay incidents, from 2,665 in 1997 to 2,552 in 1998 (minus 4%). Comparable reductions were noted in the total reported numbers of victims, offenders, and crime/offense comprising each incident.” Moreover, it seems clear that while the number of _total_ reports declined, the number of certain _particular types of reports_ must have increased significantly, as there is no other way to explain such statistics as an **866%** increase in the number of physical assaults on GLBT people by police in a one-year period. In other words, if the number of _actual assaults_, as opposed to _reports_ of assaults, had increased by 866%, it would represent an epidemic of state-sponsored violence of such magnitude that there’s no way it would have gone undetected or unreported. In _other_ other words, these statistics may represent not more of such assaults but more people _reporting_ such assaults, which, while itself a good thing, means the statistics cannot be taken at face-value. I’m not trying to pick nits, but it seems to me that we must be rigorously honest in presenting statistics in order to avoid the accusation that we are “spinning” them as part of a political agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/32 "2001-02-03T21:12:18Z")
Reporting anti-gay hate crimes is always lower than the actual occurrence. Sometimes this is because of the victim’s fear of further hate crimes, and sometimes it is because those in power don’t report them correctly. I was attacked in 1997. The police did their job. The local paper wouldn’t cover it, even though I ran a local business, was on my way home from a business meeting, and was attacked in broad daylight in front of 12 witnesses. They didn’t think it was newsworthy. They didn’t cover it until pressure was applied by a gay rights group. I stand by my assertion that anti-gay hate crimes are underreported. And do not think they have decreased in frequency. I think they have become more violent and prolific. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2001, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/33 "2001-02-03T22:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Reporting anti-gay hate crimes is always lower than the actual occurrence. Sometimes this is because of the victim’s fear of further hate crimes, and sometimes it is because those in power don’t report them correctly. I think we can safely assume that the reported incidence of most crimes is lower than the actual incidence. > [@](#): > > I stand by my assertion that anti-gay hate crimes are underreported. And do not think they have decreased in frequency. I think they have become more violent and prolific. I never said that they were not or could not be under-reported. But the survey you cited only deals with reported ones, obviously – you can’t include the unreported in the survey. Your first assertion – that such crimes have become more frequent – apparently is not borne out by the survey you cite, though your second assertion – that they have become more violent – arguably is. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/34 "2001-02-04T02:24:07Z")
> [@](#): > > . I think that they require education to see that they have no right to use their relgion as a cudgel to try and change or force gay men and women to be something they are not. They want to change gay men because they find homosexual behavior abhorent. You don’t like their opinions. You want to change them because you find their opinions abhorent. They don’t like your opinion. This is not tolerance. On either side. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/35 "2001-02-04T03:58:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > . I think that they require education to see that they have no right to use their relgion as a cudgel to try and change or force gay men and women to be something they are not. > > They want to change gay men because they find homosexual behavior abhorent. > > You don’t like their opinions. > > You want to change them because you find their opinions abhorent. > > They don’t like your opinion. > This is not tolerance. On either side. > \*\* Wrong. I want them to leave us alone and to cease and desist harassment. BIG DIFFERENCE. You don’t see gay people running around killing straight people. You do see self identified Christians running around and killing gay men, lesbians, and the transgendered. Tolerance is the fact that we don’t do the same in return. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/36 "2001-02-04T19:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hastur \* > I stand by my assertion that anti-gay hate crimes are underreported. And do not think they have decreased in frequency. I think they have become more violent and prolific. You may be right, although of course it is unprovable - how do we count unreported incidents? I think, however, there may be a different way to interpret this - any increase in attacks, etc., may be a sign of desperation on the part of homophobes, not a sign of increased homophobia out there. To my mind, the bastards are losing. **Freedom2** I understand and appreciate your point, but I cannot agree. When we die, we may learn that David Duke or Louis Farrakhan or Hit (oops, no invoking Godwin’s Law here :D) were right. Even at that point, I don’t have to respect a god that believes what I, in accordance with the free will this god gave me, think is wrong, and I would rather burn in hell then spend eternity worshipping such a deity. Sua ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/37 "2001-02-05T14:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom2 \* > This is not tolerance. On either side. I say the opposite. **Neither** side is being intolerant. Each has the right to hold and express the belief - one, that homosexuality is wrong, and the other, that such a belief is repugnant. What would be intolerent is if one side tried to stop the other from expressing or acting in accordance with their particular belief. That has not happened in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/38 "2001-02-05T15:34:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*\*IzzyR \*\* > What would be intolerent is if one side tried to stop the other from expressing or acting in accordance with their particular belief. That has not happened \*\*in this thread. \*\* (bolding mine) There is tolerence in this thread. However, I don’t live in this thread. IRL, gays are being taunted, injured, and killed just for being what they are. **Hastur** said it very well. I would like to ask **Freedom2** if (s)he can’t see the difference between an unprovoked attack and saying that an unprovoked attack is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/39 "2001-02-05T15:40:52Z")
To **Hastur** and **Jodi** : I do find it encouraging that statistics show a decline, and I think we’re in agreement that statistics are underrepresentative of what actually happens. But knowing both of you, I think you’d agree that **One hate crime is too many**. Which is the final point here. I see a **very** strong shift in public attitude in the last 25 years – gays have a choice whether to come out or stay in the closet now, depending on circumstances. And I see a long way to go yet. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2001, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873/40 "2001-02-05T15:43:30Z")
IzzyR: > [@](#): > > What would be intolerent is if one side tried to stop the other from expressing or acting in accordance with their particular belief. That has not happened in this thread. Hastur: > [@](#): > > . I think that they require education to see that they have no right to use their relgion as a cudgel to try and change or force gay men and women to be something they are not. > [@](#): > > Wrong. I want them to leave us alone and to cease and desist harassment. BIG DIFFERENCE. You don’t see gay people running around killing straight people. > > You do see self identified Christians running around and killing gay men, lesbians, and the transgendered. Tolerance is the fact that we don’t do the same in return. **(insert equally misguided retort about child molestation here)** Commish: (the only self-identified Christian on this thread so far) > [@](#): > > I’ve been fortunate to have my parents teach me things while making sure I remain respectful to other points of view. The result, for me, on this subject at least, is that I think homosexuality is a sin, but I know several homosexuals who are very nice people. I don’t hate them - I consider it a sin the same as losing your temper in most respects. > > I think tolerance is where the problem lies. We can get along just fine despite disagreement, so long as we remain open to another’s point of view and always respectful. Goboy: > [@](#): > > I am a First Amendment absolutist, and I defend free speech, no matter how repugnant. Sorry about the quote fest, but I just wanted to make sure we were all reading from the same thread. The way I see this thread, Commish seems to have exhibited the most tolerant views so far. (besides me:))[sub]sorry[/sub] You can take all the examples you want from the extreme fringe, but that doesn’t change what tolerance is all about when dealing with people like Commish and me. I think it is perfectly reasonable to have religous doubts about homosexuality, and not let it effect the way you treat others. IOW… I am not sure how I feel about the way you are living your life, but I accept that it is your life to live. I wish you the best and harbor no grudes against you. That is not the same feeling I get from (self-identified) homosexuals on the board. I seem to get this feeling that they think they are in possesion of a “universal truth” and will not rest easy or respect others until they are in lockstep with the “proper” view on homosexuality. SuaSponte You brought up a point that had been kicking around in the back of my head. Are there certain points of view that are so repugnant that we should shun people who even think them? You hit my sensitive spot by citing race as your example. I guess there probably are, but the problem becomes identifying them without becoming thought police. I’m sure that your list of unacceptable thoughts and mine would signifigantly differ.(although not on all counts) Cannabalism, Socialism:) and child sacrifice are probably my top three. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-bashing-what-age-and-what-extent/52873.md?page=3)