# Gay characters in books. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 16, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951 "2005-12-16T18:43:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/41 "2005-12-18T16:08:46Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Black Jack Randall and Lord John Grey from Diana Gabaldon’s “Outlander” series are both gay. And both were in love with the VERY hetero Jamie, but they were as different from each other as could be. **Sampiro** , why do you think Ashley of GWTW was gay? He was a dreamer, stuck in the “loveliness” that was the pre-war South, desperately in love with Melanie and desperately in lust with Scarlett. I didn’t get that he was gay at all. A bit on the noble-South-I-will-not-dirty-my-hands-with-manual-labor side, unable to deal with the harsh brash reality of Reconstruction. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/42 "2005-12-18T16:09:51Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Ruth and Idgie from “Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistlestop Cafe” were lesbians. Hollywood sanitized the relationship a bit in the movie, but the undertones were there. I haven’t read the book, but does it clearly state that? I thought they were extremely close friends who had gone through much more than most friends. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/43 "2005-12-18T17:09:55Z")
> [@honeydewgrrl](#): > > And though downplayed in the movie, the lesbian relationship in the book _Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistlestop Cafe_ is much more obvious. > [@punditlisa](#): > > Ruth and Idgie from “Fried Green Tomatoes at the Whistlestop Cafe” were lesbians. Hollywood sanitized the relationship a bit in the movie, but the undertones were there. > [@ivylass](#): > > I haven’t read the book, but does it clearly state that? I thought they were extremely close friends who had gone through much more than most friends. That was the way that Hollywood chose to handle it. I just pulled out my copy of the book and will attempt to find some passages that are not as subtle as the Hollywood interpretation. While I’m looking, I’ll leave a more indirect perspective on Idgie and Ruth’s lesbianism. In Rita Mae Brown’s autobiography _Rita Will_, she discusses her relationship with Fannie Flagg, the author of _Fried…_. The were apparently a couple while Fannie was writing the book. Rita alleges that Idgie’s character was based on a member of Fannie’s family, and that while Rita encouraged Fannie to be more blatant as to the nature of their relationship, Fannie was hesitant because her religous southern family would not have approved of flagrant discussion of family skeletons that are better left un-discussed. So Fannie downplayed the lesbianism in the book first, and then Hollywood chose to downplay it even further. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/44 "2005-12-18T17:17:10Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > **glbtq** ’s encyclopedia has [this thorough article](http://www.glbtq.com/literature/myst_fic_gay.html) about gay males in mystery fiction. I was going to bring up George Baxt’s Pharoah [sic] Love mysteries, and I’m not happy with the way this article treated them. Baxt used homosexuals and homosexual themes throughout his books. He was in show business for years and his gay characters almost always have that flamboyant kind of open bitchiness in their world but closeted neurosis in the straight world that was implied to the point of stereotype in the pre-Stonewall days. I don’t agree that the books are anti-gay, especially in light of when they were published. In fact, Pharoah Love is never explicitly said to be gay at any time in _A Queer Sort of Death_ (not Baxt’s title) even though it seems heavy-handedly obvious today. Baxt was apparently gay himself, since there’s mention of at least one boyfriend in references to him, although his public biographies are strictly noncommittal on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/45 "2005-12-18T17:36:13Z")
Baruch and Balthamos, a pair of angels from Philip Pullman’s _His Dark Materials_. And in Neil Gaiman’s _American Gods_, the ifrit and the Arab cabbie are gay, and Sam is bisexual. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/46 "2005-12-18T18:27:42Z")
Celie in _The Color Purple_ is gay. It’s hinted at in the movie, when Shug kisses her, but in the book, Celie actually leaves her husband to live with Shug as her lover. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/47 "2005-12-18T18:54:42Z")
[spoiler]Idgie’s tomboyish nature is certainly covered in the movie, but her sexuality is largely ignored, aside from her refusing to marry Grady and not ever showing much of an interest in any men. In the book, there is a character, Eva, who is, among other things, a prostitute that hangs out at the bar down by the river. Idgie’s older brother, Buddy, has “relations” with Eva before his tragic death at a young age. Idgie has “relations” with Eva after Ruth gets married and moves away to live with her husband. Those “relations” go on and off for about 5 years. Then Stump, Ruth’s son, who is raised as Idgie and Ruth’s son (see below) is taken to Eva, by Idgie, to gain confidence in “what to do with a girl” when he comes of age. Here are a few quotes I’ve been able to scrounge up: * * * …“Good God, girl, whats the matter with you? You look like a lizard with a hangover!” Hank Williams was singing his heart out about how he was so lonesome he could die. Idgie said, “Rugh moved out.” Eva’s mood changed, “What?” “Moved out. Went over to Cleo and Ninny’s house.” Eva sat down. “Well, good Lord, Idgie, why did she do that?” “She’s mad at me.” “I figured that. But what did you do?” “I lied to her.” “Uh-oh. What did you say?” “I told her I was going to Atlanta to see my Sister Leona and John.” “Didn’t you go?” “No.” “Where did you go?” “Out in the woods.” “With who?” “By myself. I just wanted to be by myself, that’s all.” “Why didn’t you tell her?” “I don’t know. I guess I just kinda got mad at having to tell somebody where I am all the time. I don’t know. I was beginning to feel kinda trapped, like I needed to get out for a while. So I lied. That’s all. What’s the big deal? Grady lies to Gladys, and Jack lies to Mozell.” “Yeah, but now, honey, you ain’t Grady or Jack…and Ruth ain’t Gladys or Mozell, either. Oh Lord, girl, I hate to see this happen, don’t you remember the fits you was having until she came over here?” “Yeah, but sometimes I just need to take off for a while. I feel like I need my freedom. You know.” “Course I know, Idgie, but you got to look at this thing from her point of view. That girl give up everything she had to come over here. She left her hometown and all her friends she creu up with–gave up all that just to be here and make a life for you. You and Stump are all she has. You’ve got all your friends and your family…” “Yeah, well, sometimes I think they like her better than they like me.” “You listen, Idgie, I’m gonna tell you something. Don’t you think she couldn’t have anybody that she wanted around here? All she’d have to do is snap her fingers. So I’d think long and hard before I’d go flying off.” … (Whistle Stop, Alabama’s Weekly Bulletin) October 30, 1947: Stump Threadgoode Makes Good - Stump Threadgoode, son of Idgie Threadgoode and Ruth Jamison, got a big write-up in the _Birmingham News_. Congratulations. We’re all mighty proud of him, but don’t go in the cafe unless you’re willing to spend an hour having Idgie tell you all about the game. Never saw a prouder parent. … [Smokey] had never touched [Ruth], except to shake her hand. He had never held or kissed her, but he had been true to her alone. He would have killed for her. She was the kind of woman you could kill for; the thought of anything or anybody hurting her made him sick to his stomach. … And even after she had died, she was still alive in his heart. She could never die for him. Funny. All those years, and she had never known. Idgie knew, but never said anything. She wasn’t the kind to make you feel ashamed of loving, but she knew. She had tried so hard to find him when Ruth had become ill, but he had been off somewhere, riding the rails. When he did come back, Idgie took him to the place. They each understood what the other was feeling. It was as if, from then on, the two of them mourned together. Not that they ever talked about it. The ones that hurt the most always say the least. …[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/48 "2005-12-18T20:00:43Z")
In the Alex Delaware mystery novels by Jonathan Kellerman, Alex’s best friend is a gay LAPD officer named Milo Sturgis. Milo is as anti-steroetypically gay as you can get. A homely agressive man with no fashion sense or housekeeping skills. His long-term boyfriend is a doctor. StG ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/49 "2005-12-18T22:00:47Z")
There’s a nifty little website for this subject: [Proslash](http://trinityslash.com/proslash.html). Wiccan and Hulkling from _Young Avengers_ (Marvel Comics) are gay and in a relationship. [Gay League of Comics](http://www.gayleague.com/gay/characters/index.php) has lots of info on homosexual and bisexual comic book characters from lots of different series. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/50 "2005-12-19T00:20:44Z")
In Stephen King’s _Insomnia_, Ralph’s neighbor and friend Bill, is gay. I don’t know what happens to him though, since I couldn’t be arsed to finish that awful book. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/51 "2005-12-19T01:42:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > In Stephen King’s _Insomnia_, Ralph’s neighbor and friend Bill, is gay. I don’t know what happens to him though, since I couldn’t be arsed to finish that awful book. Phooey on you. 😉 I liked _Insomnia_. If you’re interested Bill’s lifeline was cut (prematurely?) by the Evil Little Doctor, and he suffered a heart attack after visiting a sick friend in the hospital. This is after Ralph and Whatshername are taken up a few levels by the Good Doctors, so they can explain why they must stop Ed from crashing his plane into the convention center. (It’s not to save _all_ the people. It’s to save one little boy, who must grow up and save two more people who must not die.) Bill’s homosexuality was not a plot point in the book, just an insight into his character. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/52 "2005-12-19T18:29:28Z")
**Shirley** , I know you like Lindsey Davis novels but can’t remember if you liked fellow Roman Sleuth author Steven Saylor as well. He has several gay characters. Lucius Serguis Catalina would be my favourite, though he was more in the sexual category of male/female/vestal virgin/anyone you like, really. There are some more, but I I won’t tell as it can’t sometimes be part of the plot. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/53 "2005-12-19T18:38:55Z")
I always thought that **Sir Percival Blakeney** was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/54 "2005-12-19T19:05:48Z")
I am such a :wally for doing a write and dash. I think what has sparked my interest in this gay literature thing is the movie Brokeback Mountain. I guess I have never thought about it before in literature and now I’m wondering if I have completely misintrepreted some underlying theme. Ashley from GWTW is definately gay and Melanie deserved him, the milksop. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/55 "2005-12-19T19:23:46Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > Ashley from GWTW is definately gay and Melanie deserved him, the milksop. [hijack]There’s a story about Pat Conroy, who was hired by the Margaret Mitchell estate to write the sequel to GWTW, that’s hysterically funny (ymmv) but I don’t know how true it is. I know that a few elements are, for example that he only agreed to do the sequel if he could “write over” the sequel _Scarlett_ as if it never happened- in other words his sequel would go in a totally different direction. He also asked for minimum interference from the estate. After a while of planning an attack strategy he figured an angle and came up with a fantastic opening line (not a verbatim quote, but something to the effect of "Outside of Charleston hardly anybody’s heard of me. If they know me at all it’s for having been Scarlett’s husband). It was to be Rhett’s autobiography, and when in his treatment he mentioned an affair Rhett had as a boy with a house slave the executors of Mitchell’s estate (her nephews) did backflips and forbade any type of miscegenation. They also forbade any reference to homosexuality in general and gay sex in particular and anything blatantly disrespectful to religion. Finally Conroy had it and sent the following new beginning to the book (not verbatim, but close enough to give the point): Exhausted from a long afternoon of anal sex, Rhett finally rolled off of Ashley and said “Did I ever tell you I’m part black?” Ashley looked at him with astonishment and said “Holy fucking Christ!” Whether he actually did that or not he’s coy about (he’s been asked) but he did return the multimillion dollar advance and say “Screw this” to the project, and said it was very definitely because the estate put too many restrictions on what he could and couldn’t do in the book he’d been paid to write.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/56 "2005-12-19T19:46:24Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > This is after Ralph and Whatshername Lois. > [@](#): > > (It’s not to save _all_ the people. It’s to save one little boy, who must grow up and save two more people who must not die). Yep. Patrick, who shows up in the last Dark Tower book. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/57 "2005-12-19T20:02:52Z")
I’m surprised I haven’t thought to mention one of my favorite authors of historical fiction, [Mary Renault](http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Renault/renault.html). Most of her books are set in ancient Greece (though one, _The Charioteer_, involves male lovers in WW2) including her Alexander trilogy, all of which mention male-male sexual partnerships. The most blatantly gay is [The Persian Boy](http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Renault/boy.html), a fictional biography of the historically real Bagoas, the Persian eunuch who was Alexander’s sex-toy for years (and who fans of the book were majorly irked to see so played down in Stone’s disastrous movie last year along with Hepheastion). It was often rumored that Renault was a pseudonym for a gay man, but it was actually a pseudonym for [Mary Challans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Renault), a gay woman. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/58 "2005-12-20T01:27:18Z")
Lyyn Flewelling has some gay and bi characters in her Nightrunner books Anne Rice’s Sleeping Beauty books Kate Elliott’s Jaran novels Mel Keegan and Jim Grimsley write gay fiction Storm Constantine usually has some gay and bi characters in most of her books Many books by by Poppy Z. Brite Edward, Edward by Lolah Burford has a relationship between a man and his presumed son Anne Rice’s Cry to Heaven deals with castrati who have relationships with each other As you could probably tell, gay fiction (especially sci-fi and fantasy) is a bit of a hobby of mine. The books I listed above were ones I’ve either read personally or that I am trying to get my hands on - the problem with lot of gay genre fiction is that it is damn hard to get your hands on. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/59 "2005-12-20T09:02:37Z")
Good call on Mary Renault, **sampiro**. I thought _The Persian Boy_ was the best thing she ever wrote. Thanks especially for outing her and adding to my list of role models. 😉 biographical information [Publisher-supplied biographical information about contributor(s) for Library of Congress control number 2003269435](http://www.loc.gov/catdir/bios/random055/2003269435.html) Sample text [Sample text for Library of Congress control number 2003269435](http://www.loc.gov/catdir/samples/random044/2003269435.html) Her lesbian novel _The Friendly Young Ladies_ was set in modern England. When one says, “Mary Renault,” one thinks “ancient Greece,” doesn’t one? I’m sorry she never wrote on Sappho. Google knows all, reveals all. Whenever another novel on Sappho (like _Psappha_ or _The Laughter of Aphrodite_) is published, the reviewer compares it to Mary Renault. To the novel that she didn’t write but should have. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2005, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951/60 "2005-12-20T10:24:32Z")
From the Matador series by Steve Perry : Dirisha Zuri and Geneva, bisexual lovers. Also fighters, bodyguards and revolutionaries. Dirisha is later regarded as the patron saint of close combat ( literally, complete with icons of her ). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-characters-in-books/335951.md?page=4)