# Gay Gay Gay Gay Gay Gay Gay **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179 "2003-11-09T04:02:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/61 "2003-11-10T16:41:40Z")
[quote] I read the title of this thread to the tune of Monty Python’s _Spam_ [quote] It doesn’t _quite_ scan, but… Priam, Priam, Priam, Priam, Priam, Priam, Priam, Priam, Lovely Priam, Wonderful Priam! (alternatively, I hesitate even to call it a Priam!) > [@](#): > > Elmo: What do you want to learn about today Dorothy? Oh, Dorothy wants to learn about homosexuality! Oh, Mr. Noodle! SO what are you saying, Elmo is a Friend of Dorothy? Jeez, first it was Tinky Wink and now Elmo. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/62 "2003-11-10T16:42:43Z")
Dammit… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/63 "2003-11-10T16:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Gobear, I hope you don’t honestly think that someone who would otherwise have supported gay rights would have his entire view on the subject be altered by one person? I mean, I’m flattered, but I know my voice is not THAT powerful. > > Seems far more likely to me to be back-justified scapegoating; Airman will blame me because he doesn’t want to take responsibility for his own prejudices. \*\* But I don’t believe **Airman** is prejudiced. He’s married to a flaming liberal who wouldn’t be with him if he were. I respect **MsRobyn** intelligence and integrity far too much to think that she would marry the person you describe. **Airman** and I always hang out at Dopefests, and he never fails to give me a bearhug when we leave. Would someone who was sincerely anti-gay do that? Moreover, while I don’t know if one person can alter another person’s views in a sudden, quantum jump, in my personal experience I’ve been told on a few occasions that knowing me has made former 'phobes reconsider their prejudices. We afferct people by a word or a comment that resonates strongly with the other person yet is forgotten by us. I agree with you 100 percent that homophobia must be fought at every turn, but I think that our choice of tactics differs. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/64 "2003-11-10T16:50:23Z")
OK. Thanks for the clarification. FWIW, Airman never struck me as a homophobe until he dared me to call him one in my “performance art thread,” which he referenced above. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/65 "2003-11-10T17:25:04Z")
OK, **lissener** , [here you go, as requested](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222512). **Gobear** , your objections are noted and elaborated upon towards the end of that thread. Thus ends my alleged hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/66 "2003-11-10T17:34:14Z")
**Airman Doors** said: > [@](#): > > From that trainwreck, I came to the conclusion that a homophobe is someone who doesn’t wholeheartedly and unconditionally agree with everything that lissener said. **lissener** said: > [@](#): > > THen you didn’t read the thread very closely, Airman. Please find me a quote where I called someone a homophobe just for disagreeing with me. Previous such challenges have gone unmet, and even produced apologies. I await either a cite or an apology from you (neither of which I really expect). Apparently you have trouble reading too, **lissener**. Airman said that your definition of homophobe is someone who doesn’t agree with you. Whether or not you specifically named someone as a homophobe is irrelevant. You did imply that anyone who disagreed with you is a homphobe, From your original thread (titled “Homophobes can suck my dick.”) > [@](#): > > No, I just want everyone who doesn’t agree with my personal agenda–which is really just exactly the size and scope of the many issues surrounding the subject of homosexuality in our culture; just my own personal little agenda–I just want everyone who doesn’t agree with my personal agenda to suck my dick. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/67 "2003-11-10T18:08:21Z")
**homophone** - someone who sounds very gay, especially on the telephone. **homophoney** - someone who only pretends to be gay. **homofeeb** - someone who is very bad at pretending to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/68 "2003-11-10T18:22:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Priam \* > \*\*No, it isn’t. I am neither Greek nor north-western Turkish in origin. Born and raised in the rolling hills of Northern Kentucky with a penchant for mythology of all sorts. \*\* I just assumed you chose to leave out the pis between the a & m. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/69 "2003-11-10T20:02:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Airman and I always hang out at Dopefests, and he never fails to give me a bearhug when we leave. Would someone who was sincerely anti-gay do that? I really don’t want to go into the spin-off thread but I will if the consensus is that this is a hijack, but… Does the fact that straight person A enjoys the company of gay person B and even goes so far as to enter into physical contact with him really speak that much about the alleged homophobia of person A? This strikes me as perilously close to the “I can’t be a homophobe, one of my best friends is gay” defense. It’s BS when the straight person does it and it’s BS when a gay person excuses a homophobic straight person with it. Please note that I am _not_ accusing ADUSAF of homophobia or gobear of being an apologist. This is a point of general discussion, not an attack on any specific person or people. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/70 "2003-11-10T20:34:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Does the fact that straight person A enjoys the company of gay person B and even goes so far as to enter into physical contact with him really speak that much about the alleged homophobia of person A? I think it does. After all, the distinguishing characteristic of a homophobe is that he dislikes gay people. So if one can demonstrate that person A likes at least one gay person, then the case for person A’s homophobia is at least weakened. **Airman** is a forward, honest, open guy without one ounce of guile or meanness. You don’t have to depend on my word–any of the MADs can vouch for him as well, plus he married a sensational woman, which speaks favorably for him– **MsRobyn** suffers no bigots, and she sure wouldn’t marry one. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/71 "2003-11-10T20:41:47Z")
Has Lissener yet to work out that the personal is political? Whomever you are, you are representing something (whether willingly or unwillingly, consciously or unconciously) and people will form opinions because of how you represent it. If you understand this, it is a powerful tool for making social change - as I believe people were trying to say in the trainwreck thread previously mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/72 "2003-11-10T21:15:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*I think it does. After all, the distinguishing characteristic of a homophobe is that he dislikes gay people. So if one can demonstrate that person A likes at least one gay person, then the case for person A’s homophobia is at least weakened. > > **Airman** is a forward, honest, open guy without one ounce of guile or meanness. You don’t have to depend on my word–any of the MADs can vouch for him as well, plus he married a sensational woman, which speaks favorably for him– **MsRobyn** suffers no bigots, and she sure wouldn’t marry one. \*\* **gobear** , will you marry me? 🙂 Robin ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/73 "2003-11-10T21:15:19Z")
**gobear** not to really challenge your position, but could you explain how it differs from “I’m not a racist, one of my friends is black” ? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/74 "2003-11-10T21:18:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MsRobyn \* > \*\ ***gobear** , will you marry me? 🙂 > > Robin \*\* now, wouldn’t this have been funnier (under the circumstances) if it’d happened on one of the times you’d forgotten to log off **Airman**?? d & R 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/75 "2003-11-10T21:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Does the fact that straight person A enjoys the company of gay person B and even goes so far as to enter into physical contact with him really speak that much about the alleged homophobia of person A? \*\* I am not saying anything about **Airman Doors** , but at NYDope, **Joe\_Cool** and **jerseydiamond** approached me most enthusiastically and begged to have their picture taken with me. (On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of politically committed gay guys who won’t touch me, but that’s a topic for another day.) ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/76 "2003-11-10T21:30:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\ ***gobear** not to really challenge your position, but could you explain how it differs from “I’m not a racist, one of my friends is black” ? \*\* The line goes, “Some of my best friends are black,” and what is meant is that the speaker has a black barber or yardman. I think the difference here is that, for one thing, the roles are reversed–I’m a gay man defenidng someone else accused of bigotry, which, IMO, carries more weight than the example you cited. ---
**Author:** ![Bean\_Counter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@Bean\_Counter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bean_Counter)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/77 "2003-11-10T21:49:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\*Every time you start a homophobia thread, God kills a lurker. \*\* Oh look. I new thread. _click_ \ Oh no. \ OH NO! \ NOOOOO! **SMITE** ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/78 "2003-11-10T21:51:35Z")
You misunderstand. You believe that **because** some one has a person they consider to be both a friend **and** that person is in ‘a particular group’, that friendship is evidence that the person is not (in this case) homophobic, a racist etc. And I’m wondering how that balances against the prototypical bigot who opines that the fact that they have a friend who is in that group is evidence the person _isn’t_ a bigot. I understand that in this case it’s you who’s doing the defending, but the positions (IMHO) seem similar. If it matters, I do not necessarily believe that a person who believes their church’s teaching that homosexuality is a sin, **must also be** a homophobe, so I would not classify **Airman** in the ‘must be’ category myself. Just wondering what’s different about it. we certainly would (I think) reject the bigot’s ‘proof’ that he wasn’t one 'cause he would break bread w/a black man from time to time. (Think Archie BUnker’s feelings about Sammy Davis Jr. for example) ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/79 "2003-11-10T21:53:37Z")
I think **wring** has a point. I know racist people who have a few black friends, real friends whom they visit at home. Yet they still see them as inferior. When confronted with the disconnect, they’ll say something like “They’re one of the _good_ ones.” Meaning, of course, that they are an exception to the rule. 'phobes and Racists can both make mental disconnects to be friends with individuals they know personally, yet still hold bigoted views about the group in general. They are still bigots. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179/80 "2003-11-10T23:45:21Z")
And, of course, there’s the example of Henry Ford. Ford financed the publication of the [rampantly anti-Semitic _Dearborn Independent_](http://www.adl.org/ADLHistory/1920_1930.asp). Yet, Ford had a number of Jewish friends, whom he considered exceptional examples of their “race”. In Ford’s case, also, he did change his mind and in 1942 wrote a [letter of apology](http://www.adl.org/ADLHistory/ford_letter.asp) for the publication of the _Independant_’s antisemitic content. So yes, a bigot can simultaneously have friends among the group he despises, but sometimes the contact with those out-group members changes their mind. Getting back to the OP, this is what PFLAG hopes to achieve, as I understand it. Oops, I put actual cites in a Pit thread, sorry [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay-gay/212179.md?page=5)