# "Gay high school" opens in New York... Whaddya think? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508 "2003-07-28T20:19:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/21 "2003-07-28T23:01:04Z")
Oh, and for **Hamish** and **Guin** , to quote from the linked article: > [@](#): > > **The Harvey Milk High School, an expansion of a 1984 city program consisting of two small classrooms for gay students** , will enroll about 100 students and will open in the fall. I presume from the bolded portion (emphasis mine) that it is derived from the program you’re thinking of. 'Course, you’d have known that if you’d read it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/22 "2003-07-28T23:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sqwert \* > **The argument about it being a solution for violence against gay students is foolish. If being bullied is a valid reason for wasting tax dollars on a “special school” then I suppose next we will have public schools for geeks, and public schools for Goths and public schools for band members, and public schools for class clowns, and public schools for kids with bad acne, etc…** Wouldn’t it save time and money to just have a special school for the bullies? ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/23 "2003-07-28T23:08:52Z")
So many of these arguments are against public funding for such a school. I find this strange. The one reason for having a “gay school” is to protect students whose lives are in danger in the regular system – presumably kids who had been threatened. The kids who would be the most at risk are the ones whose relationship with their own family has been destroyed, or who are already out on their own, and are being harassed at school. Students in that situation have no safe space anywhere, and are the ones who really need a “gay school.” These are also the ones who will not be able to _afford_ a private school education. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/24 "2003-07-28T23:18:41Z")
**Eva** , I _do_ have a problem with all-female public schools. I don’t see anything wrong with letting private schools handle such specialized education. If you want your daughter to have the enriched environment of an all-girl school, I don’t know why the taxpayer should have to accomodate this wish. I’m aware of charter schools that specialize on the culture of their student body. For instance, here in Newark there’s a charter school that emphasizes African-American heritage in the curriculum. I have no problem with this as long as non-blacks are admitted and treated no differently than the rest of the student body (i.e., not treated like outsiders). If non-gays are admitted to this school and treated no differently than the rest of the student body, I have no problem with a “gay school”. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/25 "2003-07-28T23:19:03Z")
**Hamish** has it right, at least if this is a continuance of the old Harvey Milk School program. That was designed for those who had, for one reason or another, no other place to go. Many of its students were run-aways from their home, disowned and discarded by their family. Others had been kicked around many different public high schools (so the administration could avoid having to punish a large number of students) that they had very few options left. It was quite literally the last place these kids had left to get a decent education. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/26 "2003-07-28T23:21:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jr8 \* > \*\*Wouldn’t it save time and money to just have a special school for the bullies? \*\* We do. It’s call Juvenile Hall. ---
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/27 "2003-07-28T23:24:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hello Again \* > BTW, the school is tiny. I think they said it is expanding to admit 100 students? I went to Stuyvesant High School, one of the city’s Science High Schools – and by no means the largest high school in the city – and it contained 3000 nerds… er… students. > > Is it wrong for geeks to voluntarily segregate themselves with other extremely academic-minded students? I don’t think so, and I’m cool with the New Harvey Milk school as well. Right. Although, as previous posters have mentioned, the BoE should be working on the issue of homophobia in the schools, this school _is_ necessary as long as the problem exists. I would also like to add that even at Stuyvesant–a supposedly “enlightened” school–homophobia is still a problem. Despite the existence of a gay, lesbian and straight alliance, kids still use the word _fag_ in a purely meanspirited way (typically aimed at someone doing something out of the ordinary). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/28 "2003-07-28T23:25:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Monstro wrote: > If non-gays are admitted to this school and treated no differently than the rest of the student body, I have no problem with a “gay school”. We’ll never know. Can you imagine a straight kid going to this school? Using your logic, you’d be OK with gender specific schools if they let in the other gender. Kind of doesn’t follow. But I agree that gender segregation in public school is also wrong. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/29 "2003-07-28T23:27:41Z")
**Hamish** , one need not be gay to be harrassed and threatened. Shouldn’t all “victims of non-conformity” be protected? I think NYC is better off creating and enforcing strict anti-harrassment/bullying policies. This benefits everyone who wants to go to school and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/30 "2003-07-28T23:31:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*If non-gays are admitted to this school and treated no differently than the rest of the student body, I have no problem with a “gay school”. \*\* A few years back, a boy in Surrey, BC, Canada, committed suicide because of anti-gay harassment. His name was Hamed Nostoh, and he was 14 years old. Thing was, he was heterosexual. If this is a safe space for victims of anti-gay harassment, I don’t think it should matter if the victim is actually straight. If they want to go, they should be able to. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/31 "2003-07-28T23:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > \*\*Separate but equal is never equal. \*\* That about sums it up, I think. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/32 "2003-07-28T23:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hamish \* > If this is a safe space for victims of anti-gay harassment, I don’t think it should matter if the victim is actually straight. If they want to go, they should be able to. With 100 slots only, there will need to be selection. I would be REALLY surprised if a straight kid were allowed in. I’m guessing that in NYC there will be many more than 100 gay kids seeking to go to this school. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/33 "2003-07-28T23:39:47Z")
**John** , I could see open-minded kids (with open-minded parents) attending a school known for it’s “gay theme”, even if they weren’t gay. Especially if it was academically rigorous with courses unavailable at other schools. Culinary arts? I wanna study that! I guess that’s another reason why I’m not feeling this thing. If I was a parent desparately trying to find a “quality” public school (which I hear are few and far between in NY), the last thing I want to hear is that my child has to be gay/black/white/Jewish/whatever to get into one of the “good” ones. Merit is one thing…if my Johnny didn’t score high enough on the exam to get into a good school, then we can try next year. But if he has to _be_ a certain way, that would make me upset. ---
**Author:** ![Sqwert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@Sqwert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sqwert)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/34 "2003-07-28T23:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sorry – maybe it’s a failure of imagination on my part, but I can’t conceive of a student going through high school without the subject of relationships, dating, and sex coming up. And when it does, you have one of two options: > > 1. Live a lie, and watch the psychological effect of that take its toll on your schoolwork. > 2. Come out and put yourself at risk. Yep, rather like real life huh? So in the above situation a child learns at an early age how to deal with bias, bigotry, and other people having preconceived notions about them based on their sexuality. Or they foolishly learn how best to hide it from society and live with shame. The student who goes to “Gay School” instead will be ill-prepared for the harsh reality of the real world where people still talk about relationships, dating, and sex. And they will be put into the same situation of having to choose to do (1.) or (2.) without any experience as to how others are going to react. Look, High school is partially supposed to prepare you for the real world (or college). This “Gay School” looks to be sheltering individuals, rather than helping them deal with a society where SOME people are going to be bigots. Hey, life aint fair. Overweight, ugly, and crippled kids are dealt similarly cruel fates, better they learn how society will treat them differently at an early age rather than be sheltered and released into a world where they are not prepared for the ridicule or unfair social disadvantages that will come their way. Now, before you try to take your anger out on the bigots, ask yourself, when was the last time you bought a swimsuit calendar of Nell Carter, or Dom Deluise? Who is the last person you asked out on a date who had a really bad skin condition? When was the last time you tried to make a crippled person feel sexy? ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/35 "2003-07-28T23:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… \* > \*\*NYC should be allocating these funds to crack down on the problem and provide support instead of segregating these students. What happens when the chess club’s had enough? They get their own school too? \*\* If “allocating funds to provide support” means implementing tolerance programs in high schools, then I’m going to have to disagree. As I see it, creating a high school of their own more assuredly provides a safe and comfortable environment for gay and transgendered kids than does throwing money and hoping attitudes change for the better. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/36 "2003-07-28T23:49:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > **Hamish, one need not be gay to be harrassed and threatened. Shouldn’t all “victims of non-conformity” be protected?** Of course they should be. But this is a very specific and pervasive problem. And it’s complicated by the fact that queer youth often can’t rely on their families or adults in the community. The first time a Black student experiences racism, or a Jewish student anti-semitism, they most likely have Black or Jewish parents to run to who’ll protect them. Everyone considers the case very clear cut – almost no one is going to argue that a Black or a Jewish student deserves to be victimized. But when a gay student is harassed, all bets are off. There’s a certain amount of tolerance for homophobia in North America – a certain pervasive belief that anti-gay harassment is acceptable, or at least not as bad. And if the parents are homophobic, the child is under assault from all sides. At 100 students (I finally read the article!), this is likely a service only for those who desperately need it. And for many, it will be the only resource they have. > [@](#): > > \*\*I think NYC is better off creating and enforcing strict anti-harrassment/bullying policies. This benefits everyone who wants to go to school and learn. \*\* In fact, according to the _XY Survival Guide 2_, which is put out for gay men in their teens and twenties, New York City has an official “safe schools law.” These laws offer special penalties for anti-gay harassment in public schools. Yet, a school like Harvey Milk is still necessary. Sadly, anti-gay harassment doesn’t disappear simply because it’s illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/37 "2003-07-28T23:52:50Z")
I guess I take the viewpoint that a little good is better than nothing at all. Is this the perfect solution, or even the solution we should be shooting for in schools? Hell no! But its _something_ right now for kids who need such security. This is not an end, or a means to an end, but it is a school which has the chance to save the academic lives of students who would otherwise be deriving very little from their school environment. That doesn’t mean we give up the fight to end harrassment of all types within the schoolroom environment. It simply means that now 100 kids who might’ve killed themselves (literally or spiritually) have a second chance to fulfill their dreams. I find it very hard to argue against that. (Oh and for those who wish to help combat homophobia in schools, please consider donating some of your time or funds to [GLSEN](http://www.glsen.org)) ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/38 "2003-07-28T23:55:57Z")
**swert** I must take issue with your laim that specialized schools spend more taxpayer money, per student, than “regular” (non-specialized) schools. Observe the year 2000 NYC high School budget [http://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d\_chanc\_oper/budget/exp01/y1999\_2000/CSD.asp?M=HS&R=1&GRANT2=All&D=All&F=](http://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/exp01/y1999_2000/CSD.asp?M=HS&R=1&GRANT2=All&D=All&F=)_&S=_&T=\*&N=All&CR1=All&CR2=All&CR3=All&CR4=All And you will see that Stuyvesant HS spends $9,096 – just under average for a Manhattan high school. Bronx Science spends $8,002 per student – just under average for a Bronx high school. These schools make up the rest in their own fundraising. Just for an example, almost every Stuy alumni I know gives something every year to the Alumni Association. The AA, in turn, funds activities, clubs, college scholarships, and yes, electives that the city cannot afford to support. While these schools _do_ offer a significantly enriched curriculum, they _do not_ take an unfair amount of money from the city, state, or federal government. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/39 "2003-07-28T23:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by AudreyK_ > As I see it, creating a high school of their own more assuredly provides a safe and comfortable environment for gay and transgendered kids than does throwing money and hoping attitudes change for the better. I’m so glad that people didn’t feel like this before blacks were allowed into “white” schools. (Now that I think about it, a lot of people probably did.) And now to be totally contradictory > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sqwert_ > Look, High school is partially supposed to prepare you for the real world (or college). True, but the book-learnin’ is the most important thing. If the “real world” keeps you from getting the “book-learnin’”, then all the coping in the world isn’t going to help you. That’s why I understand why so many black people attend HBCUs. Racism (or perceived racism) is very distracting. Plus, being around people who are “like you” is self-confirming and helps to build strong support networks, which can then help you as you navigate in the “real world”. That’s why I have no problem with privately funded gay schools. ---
**Author:** ![Sqwert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@Sqwert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sqwert)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508/40 "2003-07-29T00:02:17Z")
Sorry 'bout that “Hello Again”, I should have prefaced that part with an “If.” It was not relevant to the topic, so I didn’t dig up the info on it. - My mistake. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-high-school-opens-in-new-york-whaddya-think/191508.md?page=3)