# Gay love poetry **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 13, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125 "2003-07-13T07:28:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/1 "2003-07-13T07:28:58Z")
I’m often irritatingly conscious of a sort of unreality perceived in gay relationships. As James Baldwin put it, “People…do not believe there can be tears between men. They think we are only playing at a game and that we do it to shock them.” The greatest extent to which it can often be understood is only as a sort of mirror image or semi-defective replacement for straight relationships, not as a thing in itself. For obvious reasons, this is getting more important to me now. I had to actually train myself to be able not to feel silly saying, “Excuse me, that is my _husband_ you are talking to!” Hey, it helps to have it in reserve. Anyway, for this reason, I’ve been collecting gay love poetry, and I’m amazed at the beautiful stuff I can find. I have to say my current favourite is one by Richard Barnfield, an early 17th century poet: > [@](#): > > …And what is she (quoth he) whom thou do’st love? > Look in this glasse (quoth I) there shalt thou see > The perfect forme of my faelicitie. > When, thinking that it would strange Magique prove, > He open’d it: and taking of the cover, > He straight perceav’d himselfe to be my Lover. Additions? ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/2 "2003-07-13T08:12:52Z")
Well, there is of course Sapho from the isle of Lesbos. Gotta mention her. > [@](#): > > I have not had one word from her > > Frankly I wish I were dead > When she left, she wept > > a great deal; she said to me, “This parting must be > endured, Sappho. I go unwillingly.” > > I said, "Go, and be happy > but remember (you know > well) whom you leave shackled by love > > "If you forget me, think > of our gifts to Aphrodite > and all the loveliness that we shared > > "all the violet tiaras, > braided rosebuds, dill and > crocus twined around your young neck > > "myrrh poured on your head > and on soft mats girls with > all that they most wished for beside them > > “while no voices chanted > choruses without ours, > no woodlot bloomed in spring without song…” [http://www.sappho.com/poetry/sappho2.html](http://www.sappho.com/poetry/sappho2.html) ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/3 "2003-07-13T08:28:29Z")
I’d like to contribute the original draft, dated 1925, of Walt Whitman’s **Once I Pass’d Through A Populous City** > [@](#): > > Once I pass’d through a populous city imprinting my brain for future use with its shows, architecture, customs, tradition, > Yet now of all that city I remember only a man I casualy met there who detained me for love of me, > Day by day and night by night we were together - all else has long been forgotten by me, > I remember I saw only that man who passionately clung to me, > Again we wander, we love, we separate again, > Again he holds me by the hand, I must not go, > I see him close beside me with silent lips sad and tremulous. > > _-Walt Whitman_ ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/4 "2003-07-13T14:09:35Z")
When I was in my late teens/early 20s, I loved a poet named Peter McWilliams. I noticed that none of his poems referenced the gender of the person he was writing about, but didn’t really think about it. A couple of years later, the owner of the company I worked at told me that McWilliams had been a roommate of his in college, and was gay. Duh. Why didn’t I think of that? One of my favorite lines of his: When mankind is your religion Care is a prayer And sex is a sacrament ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/5 "2003-07-13T15:23:36Z")
Shakespeare’s “Dark Lady” sonnets. Oscar Wilde’s poetry (at least some of it). ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/6 "2003-07-13T17:01:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Iuventius, if I were always allowed > to kiss your honey-sweet eyes, > I might kiss you three hundred > thousand times, and never be sated" Catullus, _Passion: to Iuventius_. > [@](#): > > So, either by thy picture or my love, > Thy self away, art present still with me; > For thou not farther than my thoughts canst move, > And I am still with them, and they with thee; > Or, if they sleep, thy picture in my sight > Awakes my heart, to heart’s and eyes’ delight. Shakespeare, _Sonnet XLVII_. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/7 "2003-07-13T17:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Every friend loves, but not all men > Who love are friends. You’ll find this true, > Then, whomsoever you may love, > Be his friend too. Marcus Valerius Martialis (Martial) > [@](#): > > So my baby’s on the road, doing business, selling loads, > Charming everyone there with the sweetest smile… > Oh tonight I miss you, oh tonight I wish you > Would be here with me, but I won’t see you > Till you’ve made it back again home and dry… Pet Shop Boys, “Home and Dry” > [@](#): > > Sweet boy, gentle boy, > Don’t be ashamed, you are mine forever: > The same rebellious fire is in both of us, > We are living one life. > I am not afraid of mockery: > Between us, the two have become one, > We are precisely like a double nut > Under a single shell. Alexander Pushkin ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/8 "2003-07-13T17:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > **Shakespeare’s “Dark Lady” sonnets.** Well, the Dark Lady sonnets are pretty heterosexual, aren’t they? 😉 Even if they present a pretty jaded take on the whole concept… OTOH, _most_ of the sonnets are addressed to a young man – this might be what you’re thinking of – although the speaker of the sonnets seems to not be sexually involved with him, if passages like this are any indication: _And for a woman wert thou first created, Till Nature as she wrought thee fell a-doting, And by addition me of thee defeated By adding one thing to my purpose nothing: But since she pricked thee out for women’s pleasure, Mine be thy love, and thy love’s use their treasure._ It’s certainly fair to say that many of the sonnets have intensely homoerotic undertones, too – I have read, actually, that Shakespeare and Barnfield (referenced in the OP) are the only Elizabethan poets to write love sonnets addressed to men. I have not verified this independently. 😉 (Renaissance attitudes toward sexuality, in any case, are really complicated, but also off-topic. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/9 "2003-07-13T17:47:16Z")
More Shakes as Matt said it would be okay: > [@](#): > > If I could write the beauty of your eyes, > And in fresh numbers number all your graces, > The age to come would say 'This poet lies _Sonnet XVII_ The ‘Sex Sonnet’ (_XX_): > [@](#): > > A woman’s face with nature’s own hand painted, > Hast thou, the master mistress of my passion; > A woman’s gentle heart, but not acquainted > With shifting change, as is false women’s fashion… > > A man in hue all hues in his controlling, > Which steals men’s eyes and women’s souls amazeth. One of the ‘S&M Sonnets’ (_LVIII_): > [@](#): > > …that made me first your slave, > I should in thought control your times of pleasure, > Or at your hand the account of hours to crave, > Being your vassal, bound to stay your leisure! > O! let me suffer, being at your beck, > The imprison’d absence of your liberty; > And patience, tame to sufferance, bide each check, > Without accusing you of injury… > > I am to wait, though waiting so be hell, > Not blame your pleasure be it ill or well. And something non-Shakes, which I always thought was kinda hot: > [@](#): > > It is in his walk, the carriage of his neck, the flex of his waist and knees, dress does not hide him Walt Whitman, _I Sing the Body Electric_. On preview, I see **Katisha** beat me to Sonnet XX, but I’d like to point out that it’s traditionally thought of as the sonnet with the most honest expression of sexual desire; Elizabethans believed man-boy love to be something above all of that icky stuff, something far more spiritual than that. However, Sonnet XX explicitly mentions his lover’s prick, although as chastely as he could’ve managed. Shakes touches on the more earthy aspects of the relationship with his boylove many times throughout his sonnets. When he’s not obsessing over death, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/10 "2003-07-13T18:31:43Z")
Sunshine upon your face my _Dreams of you near me_ Love is still asleep in _Drive me to confirm truth that_ Soft repose that eases _Flesh touches flesh not_ Worries you refuse to _Wispy phantasms in my_ Confess to me even now _Imaginings of impossible love_ ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/11 "2003-07-13T18:46:39Z")
_mutters_ Okay the poem cut off in the middle, but I’m feeling far too annoyed at the server hamsters to finish it off. Just part of a very annoying day. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/12 "2003-07-13T19:55:00Z")
Moving this to Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/13 "2003-07-13T19:59:17Z")
More Walt Whitman: When I heard at the close of the day how my name had been receiv’d with plaudits in the capitol, still it was not a happy night for me that follow’d, And else when I carous’d, or when my plans were accomplish’d, still I was not happy, But the day when I rose at dawn from the bed of perfect health, refresh’d, singing, inhaling the ripe breath of autumn, When I saw the full moon in the west grow pale and disappear in the morning light, When I wander’d alone over the beach, and undressing bathed, laughing with the cool waters, and saw the sun rise, And when I thought how my dear friend my lover was on his way coming, O then I was happy, O then each breath tasted sweeter, and all that day my food nourish’d me more, and the beautiful day pass’d well, And the next came with equal joy, and with the next at evening came my friend, And that night while all was still I heard the waters roll slowly continually up the shores, I heard the hissing rustle of the liquid and sands as directed to me whispering to congratulate me, For the one I love most lay sleeping by me under the same cover in the cool night, In the stillness in the autumn moonbeams his face was inclined toward me, And his arm lay lightly around my breast–and that night I was happy. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/14 "2003-07-13T20:14:34Z")
I hope the OP won’t mind if I point you in the direction of his own [poem in Teemings](http://www.teemings.com/issue15/mattmcl.html). Damn, it’s good! koee ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/15 "2003-07-13T20:58:07Z")
I read the thread title in the voice of Mongo from _Blazing Saddles._ “Gay _love_ poetry!” ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/16 "2003-07-13T21:56:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Potter \* > \*\*On preview, I see Katisha beat me to Sonnet XX, but I’d like to point out that it’s traditionally thought of as the sonnet with the most honest expression of sexual desire; Elizabethans believed man-boy love to be something above all of that icky stuff, something far more spiritual than that. \*\* Indeed. This is what tends to get called “the cult of male friendship” in criticism – in this line of thought, male friendship was idealized precisely _because_ it was an ostensibly nonsexual love between equals. (The obvious modern literary example of such a friendship would be Frodo and Sam in _Lord of the Rings._) However, nowadays you also see some critics who argue that this whole notion is overstated, as a way to explain away homoerotic undertones in early modern poetry and especially, I think, in Shakespeare. (One nineteenth- or early twentieth-century critic dealt with the uncomfortable fact that some of Shakespeare’s most beautiful love poetry is addressed to a man by arguing that it was, in fact, addressed to Queen Elizabeth, who was an honorary man! This theory is, of course, absurd.) > [@](#): > > **However, Sonnet XX explicitly mentions his lover’s prick, although as chastely as he could’ve managed. Shakes touches on the more earthy aspects of the relationship with his boylove many times throughout his sonnets. When he’s not obsessing over death, that is.** And sometimes he does both simultaneously (this is where the metaphorical meaning of “death” comes in). 😉 But then, too, the sonnet in question, as I said before, indicates that the speaker _isn’t_ sexually involved with the youth – hence that line “And by addition me of thee defeated” – that said, the expression of desire is still there. (Even though I’d contend Shakespeare is _much_ earthier when talking about the Dark Lady! 😉 I’m not sure you can comfortably place him on either side of the sexual-orientation fence, especially not based solely on his poetry.) I probably should mention, too, that the idea of sexual _orientation_ would have been foreign to Shakespeare, and to people of his day; the Elizabethans had, I think, a more fluid concept of sexuality. Though this is not to say that sexual orientation didn’t exist until we invented it, or for that matter to negate the homoeroticism of a lot of the sonnets. Of course, this is getting off-topic, as this thread asked for poetry, not dissertations on Renaissance conceptions of sexuality as reflected in Shakespeare’s sonnets, but I can’t resist a chance to prattle about Shakespeare, and anyway it’s always good to know this stuff when reading the sonnets. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/17 "2003-07-13T22:14:51Z")
Ah, no, not nonsexual per se, it was more that it was considered somehow unseemly, that one should be above such things and that a gentleman should be able to control his baser desires when it came to boys, although he was fully expected to have the baser desires in the first place. So the aspiration was to one of this spiritual desire, something that Shakespeare wrestles with throughout both the sonnets and a large portion of his dramatic works. The sexual jealousy and intimations of bed-sharing throughout the sonnets suggests that the relationship was consumated, although this has no basis on orientation, you’re right. Apparently Oscar Wilde was happily married and enjoyed a healthy sexual relationship with his wife, it’s a modern eye who decides to see him as queer in any sense. We’ll take what we can get, though, and writing love poetry complete with mentions of the boy’s cock is gayer than many things I’ve ever managed 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/18 "2003-07-13T22:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently Oscar Wilde was happily married and enjoyed a healthy sexual relationship with his wife, it’s a modern eye who decides to see him as queer in any sense Um, do you mean “gay in any sense”? One presumes if he was lusting after Bosie to begin with, being married wouldn’t make him heterosexual either, but bisexual. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/19 "2003-07-13T22:27:22Z")
And sorry about putting this in the wrong forum. I looked in Cafe SOciety, but none of the threads on the front page were about literature, but about the movies and TV. ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125/20 "2003-07-13T22:33:35Z")
Ah, my mistake, I’ve never met anyone who was bisexual who referred to themselves as Queer. It was an example: many of the poets/writers/artists etc that we all jump on in a ‘Look! They were gay, and talented, too!’ manner were probably bisexual rather than self-identified in any way as gay. Not that that’s particularly interesting or relevant to anything, really, especially not this thread. Sorry for hijacking your thread, bunny. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-love-poetry/188125.md?page=2)