# Gay marriage advocacy goes too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 4, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316 "2013-08-04T13:26:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/21 "2013-08-04T15:23:46Z")
Start their own Christian church where they can get married. They can even make their church a place where heterosexuals can’t get married. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/22 "2013-08-04T16:01:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, can I sue to compel Olivia Munn and Keira Knightley to perform a lesbian sex show at a bachelor party? If they a) offer that service to certain people and b) deny you it based on your sexuality, gender, race, disability, religion, or whatever, then yes, you could. So when a church, or synagogue, or mosque denies someone a service based on any of those criteria, they are discriminating, and should be prevented from doing so. And yes, with any luck when society finally enforces that it will destroy religion. It’s just a shame it won’t happen any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/23 "2013-08-04T16:15:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The new UK law says nothing about “Christian” churches opting in or out. The language used is, consistently, “religious.” I am pretty sure that the couple in question would also be barred from having a religious wedding in a Mosque–but not by law. There is a difference, though, between the way the new law treats the CofE and the way it treats other religious denominations. Other denominations can “opt in” to performing same-sex marriages, whereas the CofE will not be able to do so without further parliamentary action. Not that this affects this particular case, which is silly and should be thrown out. Judging by the comments on it at PinkNews, most of the gay people in the UK agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/24 "2013-08-04T16:23:00Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > Not that this affects this particular case, which is silly and should be thrown out. Judging by the comments on it at PinkNews, most of the gay people in the UK agree. Yup. Plus due to division of church and state in the US (which goes both ways), any similar stupidity won’t get far. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/25 "2013-08-04T16:29:53Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > There is a difference, though, between the way the new law treats the CofE and the way it treats other religious denominations. Other denominations can “opt in” to performing same-sex marriages, whereas the CofE will not be able to do so without further parliamentary action. :dubious: Cite? I thought all this stuff was decided by the General Synod. It is not part of the _law_ that the C of E can’t perform SSM, surely. Lots of members of parliament, and lords, are not Anglicans. I do not think non-Anglicans get a say (and certainly I don’t think they _should_ get a say) in what Anglican doctrines should be. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/26 "2013-08-04T16:33:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If they a) offer that service to certain people and b) deny you it based on your sexuality, gender, race, disability, religion, or whatever, then yes, you could. > > So when a church, or synagogue, or mosque denies someone a service based on any of those criteria, they are discriminating, and should be prevented from doing so. > > And yes, with any luck when society finally enforces that it will destroy religion. It’s just a shame it won’t happen any time soon. So, you’re saying that a Catholc church refusing to perform an Islamic marriage is an act of criminal discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/27 "2013-08-04T16:54:36Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I don’t know. Actually I would have thought not, but I am not sure. The C of E, like other churches, has its own wealth and sources of income. The C of E has some powers and privileges under the British constitution that other religious denominations do not, and I think the Queen and Prime Minister (even if not an Anglican), get some say in the appointment of bishops. That is the main sense, these days, in which it is “established”. > > Anyway, I do not really understand why you think the matter of whether they receive money from taxes, pay money in taxes (more likely I would guess), or neither, has to do with the gay marriage issue. Even if they do give them some money, the government does not have control over the Church’s doctrines. (The Queen probably theoretically has some powers, but they are not going to be exercised in this day and age.) OK, it doesn’t get funding. But let’s not pretend that the CoE is just like any other Church in the UK or, as the OP is implying, like any Church in the US. As long as the CoE has some [significant intertwining with the government](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_Spiritual), they should not be allowed to discriminate. If they want to be able to, then cut loose from the apron springs of government. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/28 "2013-08-04T16:55:03Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > :dubious: Cite? > > I thought all this stuff was decided by the General Synod. It is not part of the _law_ that the C of E can’t perform SSM, surely. Actually, it is part of the law. The Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 does specifically exclude the Church of England from being able to perform same sex marriages. Provisions in the law allow various other denominations, including Quakers and Jews, to opt in to performing same sex marriages, but excludes the C of E from this provision. The so-called “quadruple lock” provisions require that if the C of E wants to perform same sex marriage, there must not only be a change to canon law, but new legislation must also be passed by Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/29 "2013-08-04T17:00:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If they a) offer that service to certain people and b) deny you it based on your sexuality, gender, race, disability, religion, or whatever, then yes, you could. > > So when a church, or synagogue, or mosque denies someone a service based on any of those criteria, they are discriminating, and should be prevented from doing so. > > And yes, with any luck when society finally enforces that it will destroy religion. It’s just a shame it won’t happen any time soon. Should American Atheists be required by law to admit evangelical Christians as members, even if the Christians’ goal was to join _en masse_ and subvert it from within? If AA refused would that be religious discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/30 "2013-08-04T17:05:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you’re saying that a Catholc church refusing to perform an Islamic marriage is an act of criminal discrimination? No, I’m saying that refusing to provide a _Catholic_ marriage to two Muslims should be considered discrimination. Same as refusing to serve coffee to someone because they were black, or in a wheelchair, for example. If you offer a service you should offer it equally. > [@coffeecat](#): > > Should American Atheists be required by law to admit evangelical Christians as members, even if the Christians’ goal was to join _en masse_ and subvert it from within? If AA refused would that be religious discrimination? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/31 "2013-08-04T17:08:22Z")
Two things stand out to me: One, unlike the US, the CoE is a state religion. Two, in the US, churches can opt out of gay marriage if they want. In the UK, churches have to opt _in_ to gay marriage. That strikes me as unfair. In the UK, marriage is for everybody, and a state church is obliged to marry everybody eligible who wants to. Or, they can stop being a state religion. Also, I think any citizen of a state with an official religion, is free to sue that religion to change, regardless if they even belong to that religion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/32 "2013-08-04T17:19:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If they a) offer that service to certain people and b) deny you it based on your sexuality, gender, race, disability, religion, or whatever, then yes, you could. Okay, so Keira Knightly and Olivia Munn, by presumably only having sex with men, are engaged in discrimination by not having sex with each other, on sexist grounds! And by performing only in front of certain audiences (i.e. those who watch TV and movies) and not in front of others (i.e. those who watch live lesbian sex shows)… discrimination! Heck, the legal battle’s half over already. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/33 "2013-08-04T17:23:06Z")
You’re consistent, **Steophan** , I’ll give you that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/34 "2013-08-04T17:23:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Okay, so Keira Knightly and Olivia Munn, by presumably only having sex with men, are engaged in discrimination by not having sex with each other, on sexist grounds! No, as they are not offering that as a service. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/35 "2013-08-04T17:27:10Z")
Why not? DISCRIMINATION!! I basically have no incentive to take this particular complaint seriously, even though I take the subject of equal treatment under the law very seriously. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/36 "2013-08-04T17:42:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’m saying that refusing to provide a _Catholic_ marriage to two Muslims should be considered discrimination. What if the Muslims refuse to be Baptized into the Catholic Faith? Because as long as they did agree to be Baptized, then the RCC would have no problem allowing them to marry in the Church. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/37 "2013-08-04T17:58:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What if the Muslims refuse to be Baptized into the Catholic Faith? Because as long as they did agree to be Baptized, then the RCC would have no problem allowing them to marry in the Church. Ultimately, it would depend whether that requirement was inherently discriminatory. If the baptism, and the marriage, are available to all regardless of race, gender, sexuality, disability, religion, or whatever, it would be fine. As long, basically, as they treat everyone equally. Obviously, this won’t happen, as the whole _point_ of religion is to promote imaginary differences between people. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/38 "2013-08-04T18:25:03Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Talking of ignorant, the C of E is [not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England#Financial_situation) funded by the Government. No, as I understand it, it’s funded by owning a whole lot of farmland, just like it was in the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/39 "2013-08-04T18:38:54Z")
I’m a gay man who really hopes to be married one day, legally recognized by my state and my country (I’m in the US), but I strongly believe that no church should be compelled by the government to perform marriages it does not wish to perform, as long as there are other easy avenues for gay couples to obtain a marriage license. Now, the fact that this is a state religion might muck things up a bit. I honestly have no idea whether a state sponsored religion like the CoE should be compelled to perform marriages that the State says is legal and recognizes. But certainly other private churches within England should not be compelled to perform marriages that it doesn’t wish to perform. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316/40 "2013-08-04T18:42:53Z")
And shops shouldn’t be compelled to sell stuff to black people, as long as there’s other shops around. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-advocacy-goes-too-far/665316.md?page=3)