# Gay marriage and tradition **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286 "2003-08-01T03:41:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/21 "2003-08-02T13:21:08Z")
I know Miss Manners has answered some questions regarding gay and lesbian weddings. Basically, she says you don’t have to attend if you don’t approve, and if you do attend, go along with whatever is happening. Both rules apply to any wedding. If you don’t approve of the partner’s race/religion/living arrangements/parents/friends/etc.etc., don’t go. If you do go, go with the flow. In answer to \*\* elucidator’s \*\* question, Miss Manners has stated: The color of the wedding dress has nothing to do with the body inside it. It is no longer necessary for white wedding gowns to be accented with intact hymens. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/22 "2003-08-02T13:23:35Z")
Miss Manners says it, I believe it, that settles it. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/23 "2003-08-02T13:28:57Z")
I think one tradition that should get started right away is to play Dreamlover’s When We Get Married to walk down the aisle to–just for this particular verse: _(We’ll have a time) we’ll have a time (We’ll dance and dine) and darling, we’ll be oh so gay–mm (We’ll have a ball) we’ll have a ball (Dancing and all) and darling we’ll be as one._ I don’t think the Dreamlovers knew just how far ahead of their times they were. O.K., back to the serious discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/24 "2003-08-02T14:40:13Z")
Just in case someone really does decide to make When We Get Married part of their own wedding tradition because of that verse, make sure to get the 1961 Dreamlover version. Larry Graham’s 1980 version most emphatically does **not** contain that verse. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/25 "2003-08-02T17:18:40Z")
While it wasn’t legal, when I got married in 2000, no bride… just two grooms. I will never make my own wedding cake again, even for all the accolades… making a three tiered cake is a PITA I never want to do again(though it did save about $550 over having one from a professional, and mine was damn good: Ghirdadelli Chocolate Chunk cake with a half inch of raspberry between each layer, with a white chocolate cream cheese frosting). ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/26 "2003-08-02T21:11:36Z")
Not too make this discussion TOO serious, but if we were to rely on tradition only, then we wouldn’t have a problem with gay marriages as they were performed by the church in early Christianity. 🙂 Some of the loveliest blessings on same-sex couples are from 10th century. ---
**Author:** ![herownself](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8baadc/32.png) [@herownself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/herownself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/27 "2003-08-02T23:03:28Z")
**Scylla** , in my experience, going to a gay or lesbian wedding is pretty much like going to a straight wedding: the content of the ceremony, the degree of traditionalism, and the amount of religiosity is determined more by the personal beliefs and cultural expectations of the individuals involved than by their gender. If you’re asked to be a part of the wedding party for a gay wedding and you’re not sure what your responsibilities are, just ask. Probably more co-ordination with the other “person of honor” will be required than in a straight wedding, and if you don’t really want to dance with the other best man at the wedding just say so. And, in twenty years or so, if your daughter decides to marry another girl, will you be paying for the wedding? Of course! Why? Tradition! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/28 "2003-08-03T03:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ava \* > \*\*Not too make this discussion TOO serious, but if we were to rely on tradition only, then we wouldn’t have a problem with gay marriages as they were performed by the church in early Christianity. 🙂 > > Some of the loveliest blessings on same-sex couples are from 10th century. \*\* Really? You wouldn’t have links to that info, would you? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/29 "2003-08-03T03:20:40Z")
Again, my interest here is in looking at how the dynamics of a same sex marriage will change the wedding process both for gays and straights. ---
**Author:** ![LauraLittlePony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LauraLittlePony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LauraLittlePony)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/30 "2003-08-03T03:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*Does anybody remember when Latka got married on “Taxi”? \*\* I do, and if gay marriage is going to involve anybody sleeping with Judd Hirsch, I am going to have to change my view on it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/31 "2003-08-03T03:42:31Z")
There is no unitary “wedding process”. The number of ways people choose to get married are as varied as the number of weddings. Traditions are followed, ignored, broken, scorned, and made anew every day by thousands of couples – gay and straight – all over the world. [blockquote] Q: What are the minimum essentials a bride needs to begin married life? A: A bridegroom. [/blockquote]This quote, from Miss Manners, makes a point that I think **Scylla** is missing here. The ceremony of marriage is a public celebration of the love between two people. As such, it, and all guests present at it, should respect the wishes and desires of those two people above any other social conventions and traditions. Adherence to custom or tradition is ultimately at the choice of the matrimonial couple, and your only options as an invited guest are to attend and participate respectfully in their celebration as they would have you do, or politely to decline the invitation. If you cannot be comfortable at a gay wedding, then don’t go. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/32 "2003-08-03T04:04:42Z")
There’s a joke e-mail making the rounds right now that is apropos I guess. I’ll share it. Hope no one is offended: > [@](#): > > Now that gay marriage is legal in Ontario, here are some rules we should follow: > > 1. On the day of a gay wedding, it’s bad luck for the two grooms to see each other at the gym. > > 2. Superstition suggests that for good luck the couple should have: > Something bold, something flirty, something trashy, something > dirty. > > 3. It’s customary at gay and lesbian nuptials for the parents to have an open bar during the entire ceremony. > > 4. Gay wedding tradition dictates that both grooms refrain from > eating any of the wedding cake because it’s all carbs and sugar. > > 5. It’s considered bad luck for either of the grooms to have dated the priest. > > 6. During the first dance, it’s considered unlucky to use glow > sticks, flags, whistles or hand held lasers. > > 7. For good luck at the union of a drag queen, the bouquet is > always thrown in the face of a hated rival. > > 8. The reception hall must have a disco ball and at least 1 go-go dancer. > > 9. The wedding singer is not allowed to play/sing: Let’s Hear It For the Boy, It’s Raining Men or I Will Survive. > > 10. The father of the Bottom pays for everything! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/33 "2003-08-03T04:08:40Z")
Kelly: I’m not missing the point. I understand that the wedding is a flexible arrangement subject to much variation. You’re about the fourth person that’s felt the need to educate on this. Yes, weddings are different between different couples and the process is different. Duh. Perhaps you will concede that there are sometimes similarities? Some of these similarities are called tradittion. That is why this thread is titled “gay marriage and tradition,” and not “Are all marriages different.” The focus here is the traditions, the similarities, the common element s that tend to exist across a spectrum of marriages. I had thought that was clear, and I apologize if it wasn’t. For example, Mockingbird had a cake. Did they do the cake cutting ceremony? I am looking for the differences and the similarities one might find in a comparison of same-sex and different-sex marriages, a comparison between them. I am not looking for somebody to tell me “people are different and do what they like.” I know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/34 "2003-08-03T04:16:54Z")
Naught as queer as folk, eh? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/35 "2003-08-03T04:43:33Z")
I’m just surprised that you haven’t encountered gay weddings at all before now. I’ve never attended one (although my parents have), but I’ve seen plenty on television, both real ones and fictional ones. If you get a chance, watch the Bravo documentary “Gay Weddings”. It followed four couples, two male and two female, through the planning process and their weddings. Traditional stuff included sending out invitations, being walked down the aisle, having “best people”, wearing wedding dresses (the women) and suits or tuxes (the men), having a cake, saying vows, exchanging rings, and sealing the union with a kiss (my favorite part). Of course each couple had a slightly different take on the process, but what was most notable during the series was the _other_ traditions that were just as annoying for gay couples as they are for straight couples – all of the fights over the size and content of the wedding, problems trying to trim the invitation list, sudden last minute cold feet, interfering in-laws, overbearing officients, and one poor couple whose cake-baker had a family crisis at the last moment. Since there is really no one tradition for opposite sex weddings (I’ve almost exclusively attended Jewish weddings, so my view of what is traditional differs somewhat from what I see in the movies and on T.V.), there is no way you can accurately compare and contrast them to same sex weddings. From my observations of various documentaries and news stories, almost every wedding tradition has already been incorporated in someone’s gay wedding, even without laws conferring legal status on those weddings. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/36 "2003-08-03T07:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > The thing that separates gay marriage from traditional marriage is tradition. > > Maybe the framework has been all worked out for me already and it can be explained. But I think it would serve education, interest and entertainment purposes to debate the resolution of the traditional marriage in the context of gay marriage. What an admirable thread. I’m not sure if it’s exactly what you intended, but I’d like to think what you’re trying to do is give gays & lesbians a forum in which they can try & develop some traditions. The problem is traditions develop within the framework of a culture. Gays & lesbians don’t have much in the way of a culture. Gays & lesbians come from all cultures. Gays & lesbians don’t even have a community most of the time, outside large cities anyway. It seems as if many gays & lesbians have gotten so used to being “non-traditional” they find anything that smacks of tradition to be anathema. “How dare you oppress us with your traditions!” I don’t think that was your intent. I think your intent was to discover what gay & lesbian traditions are. Sadly, you’ve discovered there aren’t any, and from parts of this thread there seem to be many gays & lesbians that don’t want any. Too bad, I say. Reminds me of that South Park episode where the school was trying to do a Christmas show & everyone started complaining so much about being offended & oppressed by everything that during the show all the kids ended up wearing grey jumpsuits with Brian Eno performing some depressing avant garde thing. I don’t really believe it of course. If you get invited to a gay wedding look forward to a laid back, low stress good time. The wedding will probably include enough traditional elements you’re familiar with from the respective cultures of the grooms’ or brides’ and you won’t feel totally foreign. If I ever get married you’re invited & it _will_ be a good time. Have you seen the picture they’re using in the news lately when they’re covering the gay marriage issue? The two guys wearing their traditional kilts? I think that’s awesome. > [@](#): > > If George Dubya took the podium and said “I beleive that marriage is between a man and a women, because that way we know who wears the garter, who buys the booze, and who pays for the reception. Therefore we have lawyers looking at protecting the American way of life and these traditions. Gay marriage has repercussions that threaten receptions, rehearsal dinners, and bouqet catching all across this nation. I therefore cannot support same sex marriages until we resolve whether we are supposed to have one or two bachelor parties.” > > If he said something like that, I might have to nod my head in sage agreement. What a wonderful world that would be. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/37 "2003-08-03T07:44:14Z")
This is a “whoooooosh” right? This is not Scylla being serious. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/38 "2003-08-03T07:55:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*This is a “whoooooosh” right? This is not Scylla being serious. \*\* I don’t think it’s a whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/39 "2003-08-03T15:59:32Z")
No. I’m not kidding. I am trying to be light about it though. Let me try this: My wedding: I bought the engagement ring and proposed. I did not ask for the hand. At this point I lost all control over my life, and wife and her mother planned the wedding. We had purchased a house, so we lived together for about two months before the event. My parents held the rehearsal dinner and paid. My wife’s parents paid for the wedding, and would not let us pay for the booze. My parents paid for a honeymoon. Our wedding was pretty traditional Christian wedding. We played the wedding march. My brother was best man. The Bride was given away by her father. The Priest said “man and wife,” and then The Man In Black showed up and fought me “to the pain” Just kidding. Standard reception. Toasts and speech by best man and maid of honor. Bride and groom had first dance. Did the garter and bouquet thing. Had a band. Bride danced with father. Played the “electric slide 4-5 times.” Then My Bride and I “left” so the old people could leave if they wanted, but came back ten minutes later. There was a fistfight between an obscure cousin on my wife’s side and one of my wife’s uncles, and one of my ushers slept with one of the Bridesmaids. Pretty traditional, with all the traditional things. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286/40 "2003-08-03T17:01:57Z")
> [@](#): > > …and one of my ushers slept with one of the Bridesmaids… I have also noted this effect of weddings, that it turns ordinarily prim and proper young women into ravening sluts. I suspect its the scent of the fresh kill that drives them wild. combined with the lubricious effect of an “open bar”. Of course, only a scoundrel and a despoiler of maidens would take such advantage, but one has to wonder if the same effect would hold true with “gay” weddings. A ballroom full of drunken and horny gay men/lesbians holds little appeal for one who is devoutly hetero. Not that it matters to one like myself, who is only interested in celebrating loving committment. But, still, one wonders… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-and-tradition/192286.md?page=3)