# Gay Marriage...Anywhere Else? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 22, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154 "2000-03-22T05:14:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/1 "2000-03-22T05:14:00Z")
In his column on gay marriage [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000128.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000128.html) , Cecil mentioned two court decisions holding that certain marital rights should be given to same sex couples, one by Canada’s Supreme Court and one by Vermont’s Supreme Court. Also, various aspects of same-sex marriage have been discussed in numerous threads all across the SDMB. The Canadian decision held that it was discriminatory for a law providing that long-time cohabitating couples could get support and other rights on break-up to apply to mixed sex couples but not same sex couples. The Vermont decision held that there were serious problems with Vermont’s denying marital rights same sex couples, but left it to the legislature to propose a solution. Well, Vermont’s legislature now appears to be on the verge of passing a law that would allow gay couples to enter into a “civil union” that would give them many of the rights of marriage. See [http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/marriage000316b.html](http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/marriage000316b.html) . Anyway, my question is are there any other jurisdictions or cultures out there in the World that allow same sex couples to have significant marital rights? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/2 "2000-03-22T13:15:00Z")
Yep, Danish gay couples can enter a “registered partnership”, and from a legal point of view it’s the same as a marriage, AFAIK. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/3 "2000-03-22T17:26:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Billdo** : > > Anyway, my question is are there any other jurisdictions or cultures out there in the World that allow same sex couples to have significant marital rights? As mentioned, plus there are individual locales and entities that offer domestic partnerships to greater or lesser extents, such as cities, townships, companies, etc. None of these come close to complete marital equality, but do usually offer some major parts of it (health insurance, medical decisions, etc.). Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/4 "2000-03-22T17:58:00Z")
This is the status of SSM in Europe as of December 98: > [@](#): > > DENMARK: In 1989 became the first country in the world to allow same-sex marriages. But gay couples cannot adopt children. > > SWEDEN: Has allowed homosexuals to register as partners in a sort of civil marriage since 1995. The couples cannot adopt children or have them through artificial means. > > NETHERLANDS: New law took effect earlier this year permitting gay and lesbian couples to marry, giving them the same pension, social security and inheritance rights as other married couples. Dutch Cabinet approved a plan in November to let homosexuals adopt children. The proposal will likely go before parliament early next year. > > ICELAND: Approved `registered cohabitation’’ in 1996, which gives gay couples many of the legal rights enjoyed by heterosexual married couples, but doesn’t allow adoption. > > BELGIUM: A law passed in March gives gay couples inheritance rights and allows them to open joint bank accounts. > > SPAIN: Gay couples have no official status. Northeastern Catalonia region, however, recently passed a law recognizing homosexual couples but barring them from adopting children or receiving inheritance benefits. > > ITALY: A few cities have taken the symbolic step of creating a register for unmarried couples, but the measures carry no legal weight. > > GERMANY: The new center-left government intends to grant some legal status to same-sex couples, but not the right to adopt children. > > BRITAIN: In July, about 100 British legislators voiced support for efforts to give homosexuals the right to receive partner’s state pension after death. > > HUNGARY: Passed a law in 1996 granting gay couples inheritance rights, but law doesn’t allow adoptions. Late last year, France adopted what are called Pacts of Civil Solidarity, or PACS, which provide for some of the same benefits as marriage and which are open both to mixed-sex and same-sex couples. Following a bomb attack on a gay bar in London, Britain decided that payments made by the government to surviving in compensation for lost spouses and partners would include same-sex couple survivors (although the policy change came after the incident and the surviving half of the gay couple was not compensated). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/5 "2000-03-22T17:59:00Z")
Oh, sorry, ny source for the above information is a series of AP articles. I don’t know if the articles are available online anywhere but if it’s a real problem for anyone to take my word for it I can do some surfing. ---
**Author:** ![Saxifrage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Saxifrage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saxifrage)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2000, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/6 "2000-03-28T00:54:00Z")
Over here there was a recent decision in regards to gay couples. Friends of mine went all the way to the Supreme Court in Canberra (Australia) in order that one could get residency because his partner was working over here full time. That was the first time that this has happened with a homosexual couple but it has set a precedent for future gays wishing to move to Australia. A gay couple can register as a de-facto relationship in the same way as the breeders. In fact, if you live with anybody that you’re seeing for over two years you are automatically in a de-facto relationship, gay or straight. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/7 "2000-03-28T02:58:00Z")
Interesting, Saxifrage. You wouldn’t happen to have a link to the decision or a news article about it? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/8 "2000-03-28T03:10:00Z")
Otto, you can add Norway to your list. From an article in the Los Angeles Times: [http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20000325/t000028292.html](http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20000325/t000028292.html) Saturday, March 25, 2000 Gay Couple Receive Senior Political Posts From Times Wire Reports The Norwegian government has broken new ground in its acceptance of homosexuality by appointing a gay couple to senior political posts. Labor Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, who came to power last week, named Vidar Ovesen deputy finance minister. Stoltenberg earlier chose Ovesen’s domestic partner, Anders Hornslien, to be his successor in parliament. A spokeswoman for the Finance Ministry said Ovesen and Hornslien had signed a partnership pact, under which gay couples have almost the same legal rights as married couples. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2000, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/9 "2000-03-28T03:12:00Z")
Otto & Esprix may be surprised to see _ME_ say this, but I take the new policy in Australia as good news. Of course, I favor recognizing _de facto_ relationships much more than is now done in the US–which is to say I actually believe that _de facto_ relationships deserve recognition. Do people realize how much contempt present US law has for what used to be called common-law marriage? The lawmakers seem to think, if they didn’t authorize it, it isn’t real. For that matter, apparently so do many of the citizens. _[Hits self in forehead with heel of palm] Oh! That’s why the gays are so up in arms about gay marriage rights!_ I see. You resent not being legally recognized and are trying to be so recognized the only way you think you can be. Sorry, guys. I get it now. Personally, the Aussie solution sounds like it suits my views on law–I think the US view of hetero marriage emphasizes the legal ritual too much–but I do see where you’re coming from. _[Thinks to self:] Should I even post this? Otto’s just going to take offense again, and I got really sick of that Pit thread…_ * * * _Party per bend sinister wavy bendy sinister wavy vert & or, & sable, in fess point a demi-pellet en soleil issuant from the partition, in sinister base a roundel bendy sinister wavy vert & or._ Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2000, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/10 "2000-03-28T14:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Do people realize how much contempt present US law has for what used to be called common-law marriage? The lawmakers seem to think, if they didn’t authorize it, it isn’t real. I dunno about how contemptuous the various legislatures are, but as a matter of law in those jurisdictions which recognize common-law marriages, all the rights and privileges of marriage accrue. They must go through a legal divorce to dissolve the marriage. If they move away from a common-law jurisdiction the new state must still recognize the marriage. > [@](#): > > Sorry, guys. I get it now. I love watching that light bulb go on… > [@](#): > > Personally, the Aussie solution sounds like it suits my views on law I seem to remember reading something on this case although I can’t find anything on it at my usual sources. Does the case extend any “marital rights” beyond recognition for immigration purposes? I don’t think it does. I’m also not aware of any country-wide partner registry in Australia and if registering extends any benefits or responsibilities. > [@](#): > > Otto’s just going to take offense again Naw, I’m not gonna take offense. I mean, I think you’re wrong but I’m not gonna get offended about it. I’m also not going to settle for anything less than full equality. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2000, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/11 "2000-03-28T17:52:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **foolsguinea** : > > Otto & Esprix may be surprised to see _ME_ say this, but I take the new policy in Australia as good news. {blink blink} Why would I be surprised? Drat. Do I need to go re-read my Pit thread? {SIGH} 🙂 Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![pekaxmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba8739/32.png) [@pekaxmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pekaxmon)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/12 "2000-03-30T07:54:00Z")
I really do not get the point of Gay Marriage except maybe to get legal status , as divorce rights , property after death , etc . Maybe even adoption . My way of thinking goes that it could lead to a better society , but I dou ght it , a fam. is a man and a woman , both sexes are better for growing in our current society , so it goes . In nature there are only a very few beings that are both male and female , but they can do reproduce . Gays is natures way to curb too many people on Earth too many sick people that abuse children , so let it be . Thakx for space . Pkx 2ooo ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2000, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/13 "2000-03-30T14:42:00Z")
**pekaxmon** (and others), there have been some very extensive and enlightened discussions of gay marriages in the Great Debates message board section of [straightdope.com](http://straightdope.com). You might want to check out these: [Non-Judeo-Christian Views on Gay Issues](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001577.html) [/url=http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html]Ask the Gay Guy! [The Ethics of Homosexuality](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001348.html) [What will religions do when same-sex marriages are legal?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001338.html) [Separate but equal](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001552.html) [Please list the “special rights”](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001402.html) [Domestic Partners](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000901.html) [Homosexual “rights”?!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001403.html) [Gay Marriages/Parenting?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000485.html) [Thou Shalt Not Hire Gays](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000592.html) [Homosexuality and Genetics](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000002.html) [Is DOMA Constitutional?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001204.html) [Gay clubs in elementary schools](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001147.html) [Should a guy be able to bring a guy to a school dance?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001127.html) [Closeted Gay Media Figures](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000965.html) [Homophobic hatred](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000905.html) [Gays in the military - why a problem?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000981.html) And for some less civil, but nonetheless enlightening debates: [Homosexuality, a crime ?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001346.html) [What the f\*ck is wrong with these homophobic bigots?](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000630.html) (which actually contains quite a bit of information on gay marriages) Hope this helps. Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![jmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmonster)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2000, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/14 "2000-04-01T07:56:00Z")
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Otto: DENMARK: SWEDEN: NETHERLANDS: ICELAND: QUOTE] Why are Vikings so darn enlightened? Is it because they have fewer Christians (who seem to be the main opponents of homosexuality in general (you know, all that “Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve” nonsense))? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/15 "2000-04-02T06:14:00Z")
Jmonster, most of the Vikings (outside of Minnesota) are several hundred years old and are undoubtedly too tired to make much of a fuss. One issue I noticed was that several of the “civil unions” mentioned prohibited adoption. What exactly does that mean? Are they specifically giving up all potential adoption rights or could one member of a civil union couple adopt a child as a single parent? What if one member of the couple is the natural parent of a child, can the other adopt it? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2000, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/16 "2000-04-02T16:07:00Z")
Children are “the final frontier” of gay and lesbian equality in Europe. For whatever reason, registered partnerships in Europe are less controversial than gay people raising children. In those instances where adoption is barred, second-parent adoption of the one partner’s child by the other partner is also prohibited. Interestingly, gay adoption is seemingly less controversial in the US than SSM is. Only two states currently explicitly bar such adoptions by law (Florida and Utah, which bans adoptions by unmarried people having sex which is illegal whether gay or dtr8). Mississippi is considering a ban but the measure includes language which would nullify any previous adoptions in the state by gay people and any adoptions by gay people done in another state. Second-parent adoptions are legal in some states (CA and VT off the top of my head) and not recognized in others (WI and PA off the top of my head). Wisconsin’s supreme court issued a heart-wrenching decision a few years ago in which it affirmed that allowing second-parent adoptions was in the best interest of the children involved but that state law did not allow it. Pennsylvania courts have issued decisions barring second-parent adoptions because state law doesn’t recognize SSM (a tortured decision which is under appeal). The issue in second-parent adoptions is whether one person can assume parental rights without the other person of the same sex severing their parental rights (can the child have two legal mothers or fathers). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2000, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/17 "2000-04-03T05:18:00Z")
Personally, Otto, I’d guess that the reason that gay adoption is not a major issue in the US is because gay marriage is still being fought. When and if gay marriage starts to become an accepted fact in this country, I’m sure that adoption rights will be the next battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2000, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/18 "2000-04-03T19:57:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Little Nemo: > **Personally, Otto, I’d guess that the reason that gay adoption is not a major issue in the US is because gay marriage is still being fought. When and if gay marriage starts to become an accepted fact in this country, I’m sure that adoption rights will be the next battlefield.** No, I think the kid issue has been around longer than marriages - 10 years ago we would never even dream of the day when we could get equal civil unions, but gay guys and lesbian women have been boinking, having kids, and having their spouses try and take 'em away from them for as long as humans have been procreating. It’s easier to make a baby than to get married, for gays and straights. 🙂 Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2000, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/19 "2000-04-04T15:04:00Z")
From [PlanetOut.com](http://PlanetOut.com) today: > [@](#): > > Two Women Wed in Nepal > > PlanetOut News Staff > > Monday, April 3, 2000 > > High school students Indira Rai, 17, and Maya Tamang, 18, married each other March 26 in Biratnagar in eastern Nepal, the Kathmandu Post reported March 30. On March 27, both women were arrested on the grounds that their behavior would “promote radical behavior in society,” according to police. Authorities planned to separate them and release them to their puzzled families, but the women swore that no one could break the bond between them. > > Nepal has no legal provision to permit same-gender marriages, although this is not the first time it’s been tried. In August 1998, 24-year-old Sita Malla and 16-year-old Rupa Shrestha celebrated a traditional marriage ceremony in the town of Pokhara with hundreds of guests. The women’s parents had complained about their relationship and had them arrested before the wedding, but police reportedly released them when they explained they were in love. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2000, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154/20 "2000-04-05T05:38:00Z")
And from The Advocate [www.advocate.com](http://www.advocate.com) today: > [@](#): > > New Zealand may grant legal recognition to gay and lesbian relationships–at least those that are ending–under a bill approved by the country’s cabinet on Monday. Deutsche Presse-Agentur reports that the legislation would give gay and lesbian couples, as well as couples who have lived together for at least three years, the same property rights in the event of a dissolution of the relationship as divorcing married couples have. Under the bill, gay couples who are splitting up would have to divide their assets evenly. Which would make New Zealand the first country in the world to legalize gay divorce without legalizing gay marriage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-anywhere-else/1154.md?page=2)