# Gay marriage banned in ten states. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755 "2004-11-03T14:48:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/161 "2004-11-05T23:38:29Z")
That was a fucked up thing to post, **Gobear**. _Way_ fucked up. And **Ghanima** , **Sol** isn’t defending the bigoted Christians, he’s defending _himself_. 'Cause he’s, y’know, a Christian and everything. If you say “all Christians are X,” you’re talking about both him and Fred Phelps. And as much as everything you say applies to Phelps, ain’t none of it that applies to **SolGrundy** , **Polycarp** , or **andygirl**. Or my mom, for that matter, who’s a practicing Catholic and every bit as offended by these laws as you or me. One thing I figured out a few years ago (and forgot earlier in this thread) is that, when you come right down to it, religion really doesn’t matter. It’s just an excuse. Being a Christian hasn’t made **RTFirefly** a bigot, but neither has it made Jesse Helms a decent human being. The Christians out there who are kind, compassionate, and respectful would be that way no matter what religion they followed, or if they followed no religion at all. Because they’re simply good, decent people. And the bigots and the haters and the theocratic fascists out there would be every bit as evil if they were Buddhists, or pagans, or atheists. Because they’re assholes. Religion doesn’t make anyone behave in one fashion or another. It just gives them a convenient hook on which to hang their pre-exsisting motivations. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/162 "2004-11-06T01:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay > Not cool, gobear, and way below the way you usually conduct yourself. It’s a pity you and **Miller** think so, but **Sol Grundy** ’s whining is working my last nerve. He’s free to be as Christian and as gay as he likes–good for him. But he does not get to redefine words so that he does not have to listen to unpleasant truths. One unpleasant truth is that the anti-gay amendments passed this week were driven by large numbers of evangelical Christians. Whole churches turned out to vote against our civil rights. That’s a fact. I grow so tired of this obsessive “oh no, we mustn’t make categorical statements” bullshit. Hell, I got reamed a couple of years ago for saying that Germans were behind the Holocaust, as if Dachau and Belsen were staffed by the UN. I’m an American. I’ve never been to Iraq. Does that mean a news article that says “Americans invaded Iraq” is an unfair generalization about Americans? When the news says that a new skin disease is targeting gay men, is it saying that all gay men have it? Bitch, please! No, not all Christians hate gays. Some Christians are gay. In its teachings, Christianity is a beautiful story of sacrifice and redemption. But I don’t judge the faith by its teachings and what it ought to be, but how it is practiced. I quoted the verses from The Epistle of James to **Sol Grundy** to illustrate that the test of faith is in action, not lip service. but he refused to see the point. I don’t really much care if somebody says that they love me, and to show how much they love me, they hit me. Should I believe their words or their actions? Americans invaded Iraq. Germans killed Jews. Japanese committed atrocities in China. Christians organized an anti-gay political campaign. I bet if I had said that Republicans were anti-gay, Mr. Grundy would bring up the LCR, omitting that the LCR isn’t welcome within the party; GOP candidates won’t even take their money. Sure, there are gay Republicans, but they are pariahs in their own party. And so with Christians. sure, there are gay Christians and gay-friendly congegations, but that doesn’t change the fact that overall, Christians are antagonistic to gay people. It doesn’t have to be that way, but there it is. > [@](#): > > The Christians out there who are kind, compassionate, and respectful would be that way no matter what religion they followed, or if they followed no religion at all. Indeed, but that misses the point that to many devout Christians, both the Old and New Testaments contain passages that are taken to condemn homosexuality as inherently sinful. A person who has been brainwashed with that religious nonsense is likely to be more anti-gay than a freethinker. As for his issues, > [@](#): > > can’t type anymore right now because my fucking hands are shaking with rage, so I’ll just leave it there and see if you want to take any time to explain yourself. If a message board can leave him “shaking with rage,” he’s got some real problems he needs to address. In short, fuck **Sol Grundy** and the god he rode in on. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/163 "2004-11-06T02:10:27Z")
I shouldn’t be so hard on the man, and I don’t bear him any ill will, but he’d do better not to talk down to me again if he doesn’t want to elicit a snarky response ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/164 "2004-11-06T02:17:19Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > One unpleasant truth is that the anti-gay amendments passed this week were driven by large numbers of evangelical Christians. Whole churches turned out to vote against our civil rights. That’s a fact. If it’s a fact I’d love to see some proof. I was watching Newshour on PBS tonight and the following [exchange was had:](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/political_wrap/july-dec04/sb_11-5.html) > [@](#): > > DAVID BROOKS: Deep structural coalitions. This has been an evolution that’s been happening for a generation really, the shift in party alignments. And so I think there’s something – aside from this campaign, there’s something deep and structural. The other thing I’d like to say, and I was glad Mark… and I agree with you emphasizing terrorism and all that stuff because there’s a storyline going out about this election that it was values; that we had this upsurge in people who don’t like gay marriage and wanted to come out and it was those people who pushed Bush over the top. > > Every storyline about every election, that’s completely wrong. There’s no basis in fact. There was no upsurge in evangelical voters this election; there was no change in the – > > JIM LEHRER: In terms percentage wise… > > DAVID BROOKS: Of the entire electorate. There was no change in how voters answered abortion questions. There were no more pro-life voters. There were no more as a share of the total electorate of people who pray daily. What Bush did, he didn’t particularly well, he did well, but he didn’t make significant gains in those states where there were these antigay marriage referendums; he did about average. He did better than he did four years ago in 45 states. He did better in Massachusetts than he did four years ago, California, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/165 "2004-11-06T02:24:14Z")
According to CNN’s [exit poll](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html), Bush got 78% of the evangelical vote. Bush voters are far more likely to have voted for the anti-gay amendments. 78 percent—not a small segment of the Christian community. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/166 "2004-11-06T02:35:57Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > According to CNN’s [exit poll](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html), Bush got 78% of the evangelical vote. Bush voters are far more likely to have voted for the anti-gay amendments. 78 percent—not a small segment of the Christian community. But the correlation between votes for the anti-gay amendments and votes for Bush isn’t there. If anything, MORE people came out simply to vote for the anti-gay amendments than voted for Bush. So you can’t extrapolate Bush’s 78% of the evangelical vote to 78% of the evangelical vote going to the anti-gay amendments. It was probably higher than that, actually. The thing is, though, that there were majorities in the 70% and above range on some states’ anti-gay ballot measures…there is no state in this country (with the exception of possibly the state formerly known as Deseret) that has 70% of likely voters be evangelical. There just aren’t THAT many of them as a percentage. What you really want to rail against would be straight people, because there’s no single religious denomination/sect that has numbers that high in any state but Utah. And I think you’re far too intelligent to let your pain get in the way of recognizing the ridiculousness of claiming that straight people, as a whole, are anti-gay assholes, with the huge number of exceptions both on here and in real life. It’s over. We need to pick up the pieces and figure out where we go next. Chewing on old soup and bitterly blaming this group or that group for what happened isn’t going to change anything for the better. And it may make things worse. Adults figure out what went wrong and try to fix it. Children lash out. I know you’re an adult, **gobear**. I would never have respected a child as much as I do you. So \SNAP OUT OF IT\! We’ve got work to do in the next two years. Let’s quit chewing on our livers and get moving. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/167 "2004-11-06T03:26:02Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I shouldn’t be so hard on the man, and I don’t bear him any ill will, but he’d do better not to talk down to me again if he doesn’t want to elicit a snarky response Snarky? _Snarky?_ Dude, what you wrote goes fuckin’ _light years_ beyond snarky. I don’t want to jump all over your shit, because I know you (and me, and **SolGrundy** , and **Polycarp** , and pretty much everyone else in here) are posting from a really bad place, emotionally, right now. But what you said to **Sol** really goes above and beyond. I know you’re pissed. And you should be. We’re all pissed about the same thing, and we’re all lashing out in different directions, because what went down last Tuesday is just too big to deal with right now. I don’t want to try to tell you what you’re feeling or anything like that, but are you really angry at anyone _in this thread_? We’ve never met, but you’ve been one of my favorite posters ever since I joined up here, and I think I know you well enough just from that to know that in a week or so, once we’ve got some distance from the shit that went down last Tuesday, you’re going to feel bad about that post, because I don’t think it’s representative of who you really are or what you really feel. At least, I hope not. Fuck, I dunno. Sorry if any of that came across as preachy. It just hurts to see posters I respect turn on each other like that. None of us are at our best right now. Please, everyone, keep that in mind for the next week or so and try not to let crap posted in the immediate aftermath of the elections get too far under our collective skins. Be well, **gobear**. You too, **Sol** , **Polycarp** , **Ghanima** , **JayJay** , and everyone else. It’s just a battle. It’s not the war. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/168 "2004-11-06T03:32:51Z")
Thanks, **Miller**. (And several others who have been offering words of reconciliation – **Dropzone** and **Rilchiam** come quickly to mind, and I know I’m forgetting at least a couple of others.) Something that struck me hard after reading that post: It’s so much a cliché that it’s been parodied over and over again on this board. But seriously: If we let that election (and several other unpleasant occurrences) drive divisions between us, then our opponents really **have** won. The thing I stand for most is an atmosphere of compassion, forgiveness, acceptance, and mutual support in time of trouble. Advocating for that has gotten me into a position where I’ve been doing **anything but** that to some awfully decent people. May I please have **your** forgiveness, folks, for having been so angry I unjustly condemned you? There are a bunch of you – if you’re reading this, and have felt that I slammed you in the last few days, yes, I mean you too. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/169 "2004-11-06T03:44:27Z")
Now, you _stop that!_ Both of you! I don’t care who started it! Didn’t you both get enough of that on Tuesday night to last the rest of your lives? Please, if there’s anything we need VERY LITTLE OF, it’s gay people ripping one another into shreds. That’s already being done quite effectively _for_ us, in case you hadn’t noticed it. The scary people are the people who WANT TO TAKE AWAY YOUR RIGHTS. Neither of you are in that category. **SolGrundy** is neither a religious fundamentalist nor a closet case; **gobear** is not a separatist nor a Colosseum lion, so you can stop screaming at each other now. You have _way_ worse enemies out there than each other, so chill already before someone loses an eye. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/170 "2004-11-06T04:16:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So find a new church. Vote with your feet. I have, actually. I am looking for another at this time. That wasn’t THE reason, there were a couple. Now my feet have a sticker on them saying I voted. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/171 "2004-11-06T04:31:39Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > And normally, I would think that it’s a damn good thing that we’ve had four or five centuries to evolve as a society so we can recognize that that’s wrong, and the way to fair treatment for everyone wasn’t just to get your side into power, but to come up with a society where all sides could coexist happily and peacefully. Here’s common ground. I feel the same way. And right now it deeply offends me that our children have to say “under god” in the pledge, and it offends me that people think they have to deny gay people rights in hopes that they’ll eventually just go away. That’s the rationale, isn’t it? Make it illegal and fewer people will “choose” to be gay? Make the masses live morally? Then it will cease to be “trendy”? Why does it harm Christians so much to live and let live? If it’s because the lord won’t let them stand idly by, then news flash: that is legislation of religion and ILLEGAL. If it’s because they don’t want their money spend to fund abortions then that’s another issue. I don’t want my tax dollars spent to slaughter Iraqis. But these issues can be solved without legislating hate. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/172 "2004-11-06T05:19:02Z")
> [@Ghanima](#): > > Here’s common ground. I feel the same way. > And right now it deeply offends me that our children have to say “under god” in the pledge, and it offends me that people think they have to deny gay people rights in hopes that they’ll eventually just go away. That’s the rationale, isn’t it? Make it illegal and fewer people will “choose” to be gay? Make the masses live morally? Then it will cease to be “trendy”? Why does it harm Christians so much to live and let live? If it’s because the lord won’t let them stand idly by, then news flash: that is legislation of religion and ILLEGAL. If it’s because they don’t want their money spend to fund abortions then that’s another issue. I don’t want my tax dollars spent to slaughter Iraqis. But these issues can be solved without legislating hate. Can I cheer this one? That’s so perfectly on target about what’s **wrong** with the way things are going. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/173 "2004-11-06T05:29:07Z")
GROUP HUG!!! Okay, okay…I just wanted a chance to grope **gobear**. I’ll behave now… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/174 "2004-11-06T05:34:48Z")
Quick, somebody call me an asshole before I start singing Kumbayaa. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/175 "2004-11-06T05:37:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Quick, somebody call me an asshole before I start singing Kumbayaa. I’d call you an asshole but they don’t pick up in this neighborhood after midnight… ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/176 "2004-11-06T08:25:23Z")
> [@Ghanima](#): > > Here’s common ground. I feel the same way. > And right now it deeply offends me that our children have to say “under god” in the pledge, and it offends me that people think they have to deny gay people rights in hopes that they’ll eventually just go away. That’s the rationale, isn’t it? Make it illegal and fewer people will “choose” to be gay? Make the masses live morally? Then it will cease to be “trendy”? Why does it harm Christians so much to live and let live? If it’s because the lord won’t let them stand idly by, then news flash: that is legislation of religion and ILLEGAL. If it’s because they don’t want their money spend to fund abortions then that’s another issue. I don’t want my tax dollars spent to slaughter Iraqis. But these issues can be solved without legislating hate. Yes, I agree with everything you said. I just want to remind everyone to replace “Christians” in your post with “some Christians.” What some people are saying is not what Christianity is about. They have corrupted the tenets of my religion, and used it to attack thousands if not millions of other people, including myself. I believe that the religion, the truth of Christianity, is still valid, and still deserving of respect. You’re absolutely correct in saying that the rationale of many people voting for these bans is that they’re opposed to homosexuality itself, not just same-sex marriage. That’s the whole issue. Equal rights for all. They want to make homosexuality illegal, so it will just go away. They can’t ban homosexuality outright, we’ve progressed to far for that. So they just have to chip away at it, to remind everyone that they don’t condone it. I don’t know how to “fix” that; I wish I did. I wish I could take every other self-described Christian and explain to him personally how I’m able to reconcile my faith and my religion, so he’d understand. That’s what I try to do on here. And no, people still just don’t get it. There just has to be a way that works for everyone, a way that’s larger that any of the petty and hateful people who can’t see past their own worldview and past their own selfishness. And **Miller** , don’t break out the mandolins just yet. Some people would see this as a crisis of faith – to see whether I’m just giving lip service to Christianity, or whether I can really hold true to its tenets of forgiveness and compassion. Well, I’ve already admitted in this thread that I’m not good with the “turn the other cheek” concept. The posters that I respect more than anyone else on this board – **Miller** , **Polycarp** , and **matt\_mcl** – have spoken up to say that **gobear** isn’t an irredemable twat. And while I can respect your opinion on everything else, I don’t have any evidence that you’re right in this case. > [@gobear](#): > > ``` > I shouldn't be so hard on the man, and I don't bear him any ill will, but he'd do better not to talk down to me again if he doesn't want to elicit a snarky response > > ``` Why did you even fucking bother posting that? Is that supposed to make up for everything else? You don’t bear me any ill will? It’s not mutual, you fucking shitstain. Self-loathing gay man? Hardly. I like myself fine, thanks. I have a lot of hatred for a gay man right now, and it ain’t me. When someone calls me a faggot, or a pervert, or a deviant, I shrug it off. Because they don’t understand me, they have no way to relate. But when I come on this board, I’m completely open and trusting other people to understand with what I’m going through – some would say too open – and I admit when I’m wrong with my opinions and prejudices, and I admit when I’m learning, and I acknowledge my faults. And when someone uses that against me, instead of listening to and responding to what I’m saying, but uses that as a personal attack against me, I cannot forgive that. Especially when that person _should_ be able to understand what a huge obstacle it is to accept yourself when everyone around you is telling you that you’re wrong just for being the way you are. Fuck you. Fuck you, a thousand times over. You deserve no respect from me. I refuse to waste my time talking to such a fucking recalcitrant, sanctimonious, blind idiot. I warned you that you crossed the line, and gave you an opportunity to apologize and explain yourself, and you used that opportunity to heap more fucking sancitimonious bullshit on me. You deserve nothing more from me. I will continue to speak out in favor of gay rights, but from now on, it will be with a tinge of regret that you might in some way benefit from it. Fuck you, **gobear**. That is the absolute worst thing that anyone could have said to me in my life right now, and not only did you say it, but you showed no remorse for it and acted as if you were the victim. **Fuck you, you fucking fuck**. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/177 "2004-11-06T08:34:03Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > I will continue to speak out in favor of gay rights, but from now on, it will be with a tinge of regret that you might in some way benefit from it. That is a _terrible_ thing to say, **SolGrundy**. Christ, it’s just line-crossing fest in here tonight, isn’t it? I understand you’re irate, but don’t you think that’s beneath you? You didn’t pay attention to my post above, but will you **please** follow a piece of advice from a sister?! **Both of you need to calm down right this minute** before things are said that truly can never be unsaid. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/178 "2004-11-06T12:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > But when I come on this board, I’m completely open and trusting other people to understand with what I’m going through – some would say too open – and I admit when I’m wrong with my opinions and prejudices, and I admit when I’m learning, and I acknowledge my faults. And when someone uses that against me, instead of listening to and responding to what I’m saying, but uses that as a personal attack against me, I cannot forgive that. Well, I’m sorry that my comments hurt your feelings; I had no idea that you were so genuinely distraught. I’m sincerely sorry for that. I feel bad for your hurt feelings, you are clearly genuinely upset and feeling this whole discussion more rawly than I thought. I’m very sorry that I hurt you. I will never apologize for my opinions, but I do apologize that I aired them to you in a way that was painful to you. Thank you for your calming words, **Matt** and **JayJay**. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/179 "2004-11-06T14:07:35Z")
If **Sol Grundy** will listen to a sincer bit of help from a “fucking fuck,” it’s this: Stop looking for validation from others. I’ve noticed from the beginning of your posting history that you seem to want acceptance from others, from your co-religionists, from other gay people, from the people in your town, from posters on this board What you have to learn is that you are your own validation. People are attracted to strength and confidence; even an asshead like Dubya succeeds because he projects unswervable confidence. I know it sounds trite, but it’s true. If you constantly depend on others’ acceptance to feel good about yourself, then your emotional well-being will always be held hostage to the opinions of others. And don’t reveal serious vulnerabilities on a message board. I would not have been posted so harshly to you if I had had any idea that you were actually sincere about your feelings. Would you post your credit card info onthis board? Your cell-phone number? Your home address? If you wouldn’t reveal such personal information to the world, why would you open your heart, which is certainly far more precious? I get angry here sometimes and argue intensely with people, but I don’t take anything here internally. I can take your hate because it doesn’t mean much to me, but I do take your pain seriously because I hate to see anyone suffer, especially if I’ve caused it. You can flame me, but for you own health, forget about this when you walk away from your computer. My opinions should not mean anything to you (although I will say that, having seen your pic in one of the photo threads, you don’t give yourself anywhere _near_ enough credit in the looks department. You’re spongeworthy) So, go ahead and hate me, I’m OK with that. But please take care of yourself and look within yourself to find your self-worth and acceptance. Be a Christian and a gay man (hell, be a Republican) on your own terms and to hell with what other Christians or gay men think you ought to be, because ultimately you will learn that you define you, and not some asshole on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755/180 "2004-11-06T15:13:30Z")
> [@Gobear](#): > > But please take care of yourself and look within yourself to find your self-worth and acceptance. I’m glad you said that. It’s good advice, and it makes your recent snub much easier to let go of. Peace. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-banned-in-ten-states/272755.md?page=10)