# Gay marriage: connection between stand and general opinion of gays? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608 "2004-01-09T07:14:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/61 "2004-01-09T17:32:26Z")
I’m sorry, everyone, for getting upset. But this sort of thing rightfully, I think, enrages me. I don’t particularly care for having my equality and humanity sublimated to the will of an impish, hateful notion of a God who probably doesn’t exist in the first place. So, unless your name is Darph, if I’ve offended anyone, I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/62 "2004-01-09T18:16:03Z")
**Ramanujan** said: > [@](#): > > the right to marry the person of one’s choosing has been legally established. heterosexual people have this right, gay people do not. That’s absurd. Both gays _and_ straights are prohibited from marrying all kinds of people, including – minors below the age of consent – close relatives – multiple partners – people of the same sex These laws apply to everyone equally. > [@](#): > > so tell me again how gay people have the exact same civic rights as heterosexual people? I just did. > [@](#): > > your convictions are religious, and it satisfies you that those same religious convictions are what drive public policy? i don’t understand why people are so happy to let religion motivate government. what happens if and when the government is not run by christian conservatives? will you change your views then? Although there are self-proclaimed Christian conservatives in office now, that hasn’t always been the case. Whoever runs the government has no bearing on my opinion on this issue. Why would I change my views if the government changed its? **Spectrum** said: > [@](#): > > Skammer, you can’t. By definition, anyone who thinks gays deserve less freedom and liberty than straights considers gays to be subhuman. Ridiculing and marginalizing our relationships is no different than categorizing them (and us) as deviant. I absolutely don’t think gays deserve less freedom and liberty. And you’ve never heard me ridicule your relationships, either (please don’t get me confused with **Darph** ). I’ve taken other Christians to task for not treating gays like fellow humans with dignity who deserve resepect, love and understanding. **jeevmon** said: > [@](#): > > Hey, it’s the old "some of my best friends . . . " defense. Guess what? That never works to innoculate anyone against allegations of bigotry. I wasn’t really trying to avoid accusations of bigotry; I’m just trying to respond to the OP. I don’t think gays or lesbians are any worse than anyone else. I have more compassion and respect for gay couples then I do for heterosexual couples who have sex outside of marriage. Yet nobody asks “how can you be opposed to premarital sex and not consider people who live together to be subhuman deviants?” ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/63 "2004-01-09T18:20:54Z")
No need to apologize **spectrum**. Darph, on the other hand should be ashamed of statements like > [@](#): > > Even if they are God hating Militiant anti christians like yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/64 "2004-01-09T18:22:53Z")
**Ramanujan** said: > [@](#): > > the right to marry the person of one’s choosing has been legally established. heterosexual people have this right, gay people do not. That’s absurd. Both gays _and_ straights are prohibited from marrying all kinds of people, including – minors below the age of consent – close relatives – multiple partners – people of the same sex These laws apply to everyone equally. > [@](#): > > so tell me again how gay people have the exact same civic rights as heterosexual people? I just did. > [@](#): > > your convictions are religious, and it satisfies you that those same religious convictions are what drive public policy? i don’t understand why people are so happy to let religion motivate government. what happens if and when the government is not run by christian conservatives? will you change your views then? Although there are self-proclaimed Christian conservatives in office now, that hasn’t always been the case. Whoever runs the government has no bearing on my opinion on this issue. Why would I change my views if the government changed its? **Spectrum** said: > [@](#): > > Skammer, you can’t. By definition, anyone who thinks gays deserve less freedom and liberty than straights considers gays to be subhuman. Ridiculing and marginalizing our relationships is no different than categorizing them (and us) as deviant. I absolutely don’t think gays deserve less freedom and liberty. And you’ve never heard me ridicule your relationships, either (please don’t get me confused with **Darph** ). I’ve taken other Christians to task for not treating gays like fellow humans with dignity who deserve resepect, love and understanding. **jeevmon** said: > [@](#): > > Hey, it’s the old "some of my best friends . . . " defense. Guess what? That never works to innoculate anyone against allegations of bigotry. I wasn’t really trying to avoid accusations of bigotry; I’m just trying to respond to the OP. I don’t think gays or lesbians are any worse than anyone else. I have more compassion and respect for gay couples then I do for heterosexual couples who have sex outside of marriage. Yet nobody asks “how can you be opposed to premarital sex and not consider people who live together to be subhuman deviants?” ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/65 "2004-01-09T18:24:13Z")
Oops, sorry for the double-post. **Spectrum** , I don’t see where you need to apologize. ---
**Author:** ![jeevmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@jeevmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeevmon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/66 "2004-01-09T18:25:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kinthalis \* > \*\*I think **Darph** is about ripe for a pitting. Any takers? 😉 \*\* [Done](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=234127), at least on one comment that really pissed me off. Others can have a whirl at it too. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/67 "2004-01-09T18:26:17Z")
I met my boyfriend over two years ago. I love him more than I’ve ever loved anyone, more than I thought it was possible to love anyone. I want nothing more than for us to spend the rest of our lives together; I want to make him happy forever. Earlier this year, we gave up on plans to buy a house together. Since we can’t file jointly, the deductible for the interest on the mortgage wouldn’t have been enough to justify buying the house. We’ll have to wait. I bring this up because in the debate about gay marriage, and religion, and all the emotional flailing about that accompanies it, it’s easy to forget that what’s being discussed are real, actual people. It’s our lives, our futures that you’re debating. What we’re asking for isn’t much. We just want to have the legal protections and benefits that would be afforded to any other type of couple in our situation. I noticed that the idea that we can’t reproduce is being bandied about as some sort of justification for discriminating against us again. I’d like to bring up one point, which was thrown into sharp relief by recent events in my life. Gay couples who commit to each other for life are extremely unlikely to do so for any other reason than a deep, abiding love for each other. We can’t get each other pregnant accidentally. Our parents are probably never going to pressure us into marrying a same-sex lover. We don’t get prestige out of marriage; we have a hard time inheriting, so money’s rarely the point. When I help my boyfriend through the tough times in his life, when I care for him when he’s sick, when I make him laugh, when I clean the house or walk the dogs because I know he doesn’t feel like it, I do it for love. No other reason. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/68 "2004-01-09T18:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skammer \* > \*\*That’s absurd. Both gays _and_ straights are prohibited from marrying all kinds of people, including > – minors below the age of consent > – close relatives > – multiple partners > – **people of the same sex** > These laws apply to everyone equally. \*\* (Bolding mine) That’s precisely why it’s not equal. Straights don’t _want_ to marry people of the same sex, so that particular restriction doesn’t apply to them. It only applies to gays who don’t _want_ to marry people of the opposite sex. And let’s not start equating gay marriage with polygamy, incest or pedophilia okay? Those are different topics, that have nothing to do with homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/69 "2004-01-09T18:33:59Z")
Damn. The bolding didn’t work right. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/70 "2004-01-09T18:37:21Z")
No need to apologize **spectrum**. Darph, on the other hand should be ashamed of statements like > [@](#): > > Even if they are God hating Militiant anti christians like yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/71 "2004-01-09T18:47:45Z")
It was asserted that the right to marry a person of one’s choosing had been “legally established.” I was bringing up legal precedence for _not_ permitting marriages between certain people. There are people who _want_ to practice polygamy – does the law treat them unequally because they can’t? **MrVisible** , thank you for sharing your experience. > [@](#): > > I bring this up because in the debate about gay marriage, and religion, and all the emotional flailing about that accompanies it, it’s easy to forget that what’s being discussed are real, actual people. It’s our lives, our futures that you’re debating. You’re right, and I apologize that I sometimes get caught up in the debate and forget how personal the issue is for many people. I appreciate your devotion to your boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![Darph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Darph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/72 "2004-01-09T18:50:20Z")
He called my mom a b\*\*\*h just because i disagree with him! As far as you and your boyfriend - God is love, Homosexuality is sin, God is not sin, You are not experiancing love, you are experiancing Sin, sorry! This statement rules : * * * That’s absurd. Both gays and straights are prohibited from marrying all kinds of people, including – minors below the age of consent – close relatives – multiple partners – people of the same sex These laws apply to everyone equally. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Its the truth!! ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/73 "2004-01-09T18:56:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Darph \* > **He called my mom a b** _h just because i disagree with him! > > As far as you and your boyfriend - God is love, Homosexuality is sin, God is not sin, You are not experiancing love, you are experiancing Sin, sorry! > > \*\* Do you have proof that God is not sin? Does it say that anywhere in your bible that God is not sin? And _please_ , it’s experience not experiance. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/74 "2004-01-09T19:02:40Z")
Um, **Darph** – first, welcome to the boards. Second – I understand where your coming from, but let’s try to show a little more compassion and understanding. > [@](#): > > As far as you and your boyfriend - God is love, Homosexuality is sin, God is not sin, You are not experiancing love, you are experiancing Sin, sorry! See, this does not exactly lend itself to thoughtful discussion – instead, it invites people to either tune you out or drag you to the Pit. Since you’re new, you might want to go back and read some of the many threads that have already been posted on this topic. “You’re wrong, God says so, so there!” is not an effective debating technique on these boards. I’m always glad to see new Dopers who are Christian, but the rest of the folks on this board deserve a little more respect and a little less flippancy when discussing such an emotional issue. ---
**Author:** ![Darph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Darph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/75 "2004-01-09T19:08:05Z")
By pointing out the spelling errors of a post,may i assume you agree with the content? 🙂 Well a Sin is an act of man in definance of God wisdom given to man. So… there you have it…common sense. 🙂 OK,this one will stick with you: PEDOPHILES. If someone is attracted to well developed 16 year olds DOES THAT MAKE YOU A PEDOPHILE? NO! Because you don’t ACT on it. Are People BORN pedophiles? How is this different than homosexuality? Because its a crime in the USA? …so was homosexuality for a LOOONG Time. Polygomy, hell i’m attracted to more than one chick…does that make me a polygomist? Nope…because i didn’t engage in the act of polygomy… eep…there goes your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Darph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Darph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/76 "2004-01-09T19:09:41Z")
By the way i’ve been reading these forums for 2 years - I’ve finally registered because i think these forums are a little too ignorant(ignorance meaning you arent exposed to another point of view). And figured i should throw in my 2 cents even if it gets me banned/flamed whatever. Its good for thought. ---
**Author:** ![Lucki\_Chaarms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lucki\_Chaarms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucki_Chaarms)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/77 "2004-01-09T19:11:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darph \* > \*\*A homosexual is someone who acts on those feelings. Not someone has possesses them, thats where youre argument is flawed. 😉 \*\* Well, allow me to define my terms. For the sake of this post, a homosexual is one who is sexually attracted only to members of their own gender. A heterosexual is one who is sexually attracted only to members of the opposite gender. It is, of course, a choice to act on one’s desires, but no more so for homosexuals than for heterosexuals. I’d like to hope that gives you a slightly different perspective to consider things from, even if it doesn’t change your mind. Homosexuality is no more a choice than heterosexuality, even following your rules. Also, I do respect the argument that Christianity holds their version of marriage to be a holy sacrament and an integral part of their religion, and they don’t believe that this sacrament extends to homosexual marriages. Makes perfect sense to me. Don’t you feel, however, that it demeans this holy sacrament that it is under control, and is therefore subject to the opinions of the majority or the judicial branch of our government? If what you call marriage is a sacred institution, should it not be a matter to be presided over by the Christian church with the guidance of their God, rather than politicians and a populace that may or may not hold beliefs consistent with those of Christianity? Would it not be better to get the government out of the business of “marriage”, leaving the sacramental practice to the church, and instead have the government allow couples of any kind to enter in to a legal contract with one another? I can easily see why a Christian church would not want to declare a gay couple to be “married”, entering in to a union that is sanctified by the Christian God. I don’t understand why they care if gay couples have basic legal rights. In short, I agree that gays cannot be married in the sense that Paul wrote about. I also don’t believe that a government can grant a marriage in the sense that Paul wrote about. Therefore, I don’t see an inherent conflict in allowing the government to extend what they CAN give to a gay couple. Yippee. LC ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/78 "2004-01-09T19:13:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darph \* > \*\*By pointing out the spelling errors of a post,may i assume you agree with the content? 🙂 > > Well a Sin is an act of man in definance of God wisdom given to man. So… there you have it…common sense. 🙂 > \*\* No, I don’t see us agreeing on anything. The note was a sidebar to the original discussion. The main part of the post asked you to provide some proof whence you get the info that god is not sin from your bible. Common sense and religion don’t go hand in hand so you’ll need to provide chapter and verse where your bible says that god is not sin or retract your statement, easy cheesy. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/79 "2004-01-09T19:32:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darph \* > As far as you and your boyfriend - God is love, Homosexuality is sin, God is not sin, You are not experiancing love, you are experiancing Sin, sorry! I wonder… who gave you the power to judge our love? Didn’t Christ himself have something to say on the subject of judgement? If it’s sin to devote myself to the happiness of another, if it’s sin to make my life revolve around his, if it’s sin to care about him, and for him, to make his burdens easier and his joys greater, then that is a matter for myself and my Creator to sit down and debate. Meanwhile, here on Earth, your religion of love is putting massive obstacles in the way of people who want to build their lives on caring for each other. Whatever your intentions, the results of your actions are causing millions of people unhappiness, distress, and difficulty. How could that be anything but evil? How is making people’s lives miserable, simply because they love each other, not a sin? ---
**Author:** ![Lucki\_Chaarms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lucki\_Chaarms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucki_Chaarms)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608/80 "2004-01-09T19:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darph \* > \*\*By the way i’ve been reading these forums for 2 years - I’ve finally registered because i think these forums are a little too ignorant(ignorance meaning you arent exposed to another point of view). And figured i should throw in my 2 cents even if it gets me banned/flamed whatever. Its good for thought. \*\* To a certain extent, I agree. There’s an awful lot of knee-jerk anti-religious sentiment on these boards, but it’s quickly overcome when a person shows themself to be a polite, reasonable, intelligent person. You’ll do no favors to the people on this board whose viewpoints could use broadening or to the cause of Christianity by throwing in something meant to be inflammatory in order to get people thinking. All you’ll do is reinforce the stereotypes that some of our members already hold. The people here do a lot of thinking, but not all viewpoints are represented. If you remain civil, actually respond to people’s points and don’t go looking to shake anybody up just to get them thinking, you’ll be serving as an infinitely better witness to and member of the community. If you can’t do that, you don’t belong here, but don’t claim it’s because of your Christianity. Nobody has ever been banned for sticking to their traditional Christian guns here. If you can’t help but be a jerk, you don’t belong here, I’d just hate to see more slandering of the name of Christianity because some pompous ass appointed himself official spokesperson for the entire religion and ran around offending everybody just to watch the liberals shriek and point. At the very least, if you’re not really going to address the points people make against you, stay out of GD, as you’re just going to make everyone mad, and that has nothing to do with your poisition. LC [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gay-marriage-connection-between-stand-and-general-opinion-of-gays/223608.md?page=5)